Crafting: Hedgespinning

((Once we have a Changeling - General forum, I will have this thread moved, but to get it posted...))

I have pretty much thought about changing the hedgespinning rules for a while, after seeing them in action. You can find the rules at here. We would most likely go back to the original rules, with a few tweaking to make some things less "zomg powerful".

Or we could smash together rules that match the fetish creation rules from LotF (which work pretty decently). Some issues we've had in the past is that mundane crafted items can be better than low level hedgespun items, and hedgespun armor was definitely an XP sink in that you could make better armor for free.

Some things I would change from the book rules on hedgespinning:


- The success threshold would remain the same.
- Toxicity would remain the same (Dots spent = Toxicity rating, 'cause woah 9 toxicity is nigh-impossible to resist).

What are your opinions?

Please get out of my head, Cobalt. It is a dangerous, dangerous spot to be I was just considering why Hedgespinning isn't like Fetishes.

I definitely approve of revamping the Hedgespinning system, and I definitely approve of it coming to resemble the Fetish creation system we have. The Fetish system is pretty darn awesome, allows for a whole lot more versatility in what the 'Spinners are able to make, and will definitely streamline things. Especially since it's pretty close to how we do Pledges. Why have several different systems to make magical things, when you can have one system and just the 'flavor' of what you make change?

I don't now werewolf, and don't think I'm the only one, so...How are fetishes handled? I always got the impression they were more like Tokens than hedgespun?

I'm talk about the OOC rules on how to build a fetish. Which boils down to:

You have a bunch of different powers that all cost a certain amount of creation points 10-50points, a bunch of extra enhancements that cost 5-10 creation points, then a bunch off drawbacks that subtract points to the total. The total creation points spent on the fetish determine the power level of the fetish.

Will hedgespun items get more options, then? They are rather limited. I know this is so that tokens aren't devauled since you could craft your own later, but to me it still feels sort of lacking

I think simplifying the rules, and making them- as intended- slightly better than normal weapons, with spiffy magical looks, is a fantastic idea. On the other end of the spectrum from Alexander, my concern is keeping hedgespun as a minor boost to stats through magical means at most, rather than boosting them up to be the bastard son of tokens. If you want to allow powerful magical stuff to be created in the Changeling sphere, I'd prefer to see rules to add tokenmaking for IC crafting, rather than trying to make hedgespinning fit the role.

I do not, at current, really want to allow for tokenmaking....

But I've been swayed from things before. I am willing to hear reasons as to why we should allow people to be able to make tokens. (Not, we will need to put in some system to make it difficult to make tokens. Ala fetishes in werewolf, it costs a mininum of 40xp or 50xp to be able to use the fetish rite.)

Making it cost that much in the way of xp to purchase would be a tad bit excessive. I could see tokenmaking being a lot like fetish making in that it's going to require a lengthy job or plot in order to get the items needed. Think someone could purpose a token, and the staffers would pick how to go about getting the mats. If you wanted a pair of goggles that let you see in the dark, that'd be a one or two dot token and require you to find a certain kind of ruby quartz crystal to make the lenses out of.

I could see, however, how this could get too rampent and cause issues if it's too easy to do. Balancing it out is going to be really tricky. Maybe tie it to Wyrd? I know you dislike HR'ing stuff.

I'm not looking for stuff that increases your strength by 5 for a scene. Maybe allow you to use a contract for a few turns, or allow something like the night vision Wyrd goggles I talked about a bit ago that gives a perception bonus while it's dark out. Nothing that truly breaks a character or the game, but something more than the few options given.

Why is it excessive? Tokens are on par with fetishes. You have to spend that much to be able to make fetishes without spending XP on them. I don't see that as an unfair trade of.


ETA: Right now, hedgespinning is supposed to require a plot or a lengthy job to get the materials.


ETA2: Keep in mind that I'm not talking about making it cost that much XP, but something should be put in place so that only people who invest XP should be able to make tokens.

Cobalt wrote:

I do not, at current, really want to allow for tokenmaking....

But I've been swayed from things before. I am willing to hear reasons as to why we should allow people to be able to make tokens. (Not, we will need to put in some system to make it difficult to make tokens. Ala fetishes in werewolf, it costs a mininum of 40xp or 50xp to be able to use the fetish rite.)

My comment wasn't meant to suggest we /need/ tokenmaking for PC's, But, if you're talking about using fetish rules for hedgespun, but fetishes are on par with tokens, then youa re making hedgespun/tokens not much different, and it seems that they are intended to be functionally different. A hedgespun is a slightly boosted, but mostly mundane item from a mechanical standpoint, and fanciful as you like decoratively. Tokens are magical items with great and mighty powers.
So I guess my voteis 'back to the book, but with tweaks.
It seemslike ROS is pretty cut and dry. You get a slight boost to an appropriate skill or attack/defense ability, related to how high the token merit is. Mechanical things can be made with fanciful ingredients. Clothing for the simple prestige of it fairly common. It requires getting the material and crafting rolls. I think somewhere it's mentioned as an option that Hedgespun can only be crafted with people who have a spec. Personally, I like that restriction. Hedgespun becomes much less 'wonderously alluring' when it can be made by anyone with a dot of crafts. Particularly since there's such an extraordinary number of crafters on the grid.

If you want to open the Token can o' worms: Token-maker merit is required to do it, up it to a higher level merit if you're concerned about making all things equal between sphere mechanics. Each token requires material (occult roll to design+getting the stuff), crafting time, and setting it out in the hedge for x number of days, during which you can't make anything else (just to give staff a break on the +requests). You get a number of token dots to craft each month equal to halfyour wyrd (to keen a flood of level 5 tokens off the grid). You propose an effect to stff based on what you want to accomplish, explaining what you do to manipulate the wyrdy affects of the Hedge tomake the token do what you want. If staff feels it's appropriate and the dice are nice, they give it the okay. If not, it either doesn't work, or gets some entirely different effect appropriate to how it was crafted, decided by staff.

Don't know how it is in the book (since it's not in the game I haven't bothered with it), but make it a 1-5 dot merit. That's 30xp for all five dots. You can only make tokens up to the level you have purchased. It's not quite as expensive, but still isn't cheap (means I have to wait 10 weeks to get enough xp to buy five dots).

An equitable cost for Token Maker would be to raise the requisite Wyrd score from 2 to 3 or 4, but I'm with Bea here. Tokens have strange powers, drawbacks, and can be used by anyone. Hedgespun items follow more of a set system.

Now, I would be in favor of expanding (slightly) what can be constructed via Hedgespinning. I really like the Hedgespun automatons in Rites of Spring, for instance, and the art that can enthrall people. I don't think that it should take over the design space of tokens, trifles, goblin fruit or oddments, though.

Consider also that werewolves have a strict limit on how many fetishes they can use at any given time, while changelings have no such limitation. Werewolves can use tokens, of course, and changelings can't use normal fetishes at all, and there are cursed items and ghost-touched items and talens, so this isn't QQing for the poor werewolves so much as pointing out that changelings are already somewhat superior with respect to their magic toys.

Definitely agree with Sammie that the 'fluffy' stuff like automatons and art being a viable options for Hedgespinning. It'd give all the crafters a way to branch out.
I also like the idea of raising Wyrd cost, if you decide to give Token-making serious consideration.

Another thought I had, which I don't know is a particularly good one, but might be a way to make Hedgespun less of an XP sink compared to Tokens, is to make Hedgespun be a seperate stat. This way you don't end up paying 20 XP for that one dot Hedgespun sword because you already have a Token. I'm even gonna go so far as to suggest making the cost 2 x dots, like Goblin Contracts are set up, or Ceremoniesin Geist.

As a crafter, I've enjoyed being able to make things for people, but this has usually been limited to weapons and a few tools with bonuses. Branching out to other usable items would be great if there could be rules for that, but I haven't found any problems with being allowed to build whatever was necessary. I don't really know if the system needs changing, but maybe I just don't understand it as well as others. I try not to overstep bounds with my crafter and don't want to push things too far, but it seems like the power level of an item can be limited by the successes necessary - for most people. Dedicated crafters, Artists, and other builders have an edge in getting successes, but have also specifically dedicated their character and their xp towards doing just that. It isn't necessarily a mandatory thing like with werewolf, but in order to achieve the necessary successes for our creations that xp expediture is a very good idea. Most changelings won't be able to just bust out 45 successes in an extended crafts roll.

I may be lost on where this all came from, but my question would be, "What is wrong with the current system?" If anything the system is too lenient and new rules would be reeling the players back from what they can currently do, which is just about anything with enough successes. That, I would understand.