Freehold Improvements: Spring's Take

What follows is a very short summation of the current discussion on the OOC Spring job having to do with how to improve the current situation with the freehold. Some items I can address points on, others not at this time, but either way, all items are open for discussion and further clarification if people want to go into any particular items further.

1. Torture and Execution. Right now there seems to be no checks or balances on when torture or execution are considered viable options, or if they should even be at all. There is question as to whether torture and execution also fall under the idea of dealing with conflicts in a "fair and honorable" fashion.

This issue is currently being addressed only OOC in so far as I know. I don't know of any current IC action being taken, however it may be something that folds into developing a new Oath.

2. Democratic Governance. Some have put forward that the current structure in and of itself is no good, and a more democratic form of government should take its place.

Presently, the Crown and Council rule with the Crown in charge, treating the Council as it is inclined depending on the season. Summer would not take action without Crown approval, Spring before it only used it as an advisory board. Further details on this are incorporate in Point 4.


3. Freehold Resources. Presently there's very little that freehold members get other than bonuses to certain stats that non-freehold members don't. Develop more useful resources and perks to incline others to join.

I've got nothing here, but am open to ideas. How exclusionary do we want to get? How vested are people in the idea of a shit or get off the pot approach? Comments are welcome.

4. Proactive Government. Have the Councilors take a more proactive role in the concerns of their Courts and its individual members ICly.

This one's a double edged sword. Lack of enthusiasm makes it difficult sometimes to get seats voted in, summarily with lack of enthusiasm the Councilors have little inclination to do anything. What they SHOULD be doing is serving as the first contact for their Court to the Crown, possibly resolving issues at their level when they can and upping it to the next level - the Crown - when they can't, or when it's such a broad concern that it's everybody's problem.

5. The Redoubt.The freehold Hollow is an enormous XP sink; suggest alternative options for its upkeep.

I believe suggestions will be coming up in another post, so keep an eye out.

6. Staff Alts & NPCs. Fewer staff alts and staff NPCs in leadership positions; likewise create more positions within the Court for PCs to strive for. Likewise, less emphasis on NPCs in plots.

I got nothing, but comments are welcome and so are ideas/examples for Court positions.

7. Public Politics. Have the political happenings occur in a more public, IC format to allow others to see it in action and possibly have a hand in manipulating it.

My only comment to this is that handling a lot of issues IC can be dreadfully boring for the people involved, and resolving issues generally comes along faster via +job and handled OOCly. That said, per Alister Winter does plan to hold more open courts to hear people out and for them to come get to know/watch/experience the Crown in action.

8. External Influences. Some form form of conflict coming in from outside the freehold. Summarily, developing diplomatic ties with other freeholds as well as supernatural groups.

Olivia is currently the freehold's werewolf liaison, however she would be interested in giving up this hat to someone else. That's the only diplomatic tie I have hard info on. The werewolves, unlike for example, psychics, have a society one can extend diplomatic relations to. Staff should be alert to ideas of interacting with other freeholds, naturally!

9. Social Events. More social events. But more importantly, social events people can be INVOLVED in, as opposed to just standing around sipping chardonnay.

Done! Check out the events Holland currently has planned. They should be wicked fun!

10. A simplified Freehold Oath.

The current one is inadequate, we know. It's being worked on as we speak.

11. Welcome Wagon. Some form of system for welcoming newcomers and helping/directing them to the freehold.

I have an idea for a freehold position with regard to this, a 'Freehold Hospitaler'. Summarily, I know I have considered forming a motley whose purpose is basically to BE a welcome wagon, but there's lots of ways we can go about this, and lots more people who are interested in this besides me, who might have better ideas.


The floor is open, folks!

Ok, here's my take.

1. Torture and Execution. This is an example of why things are messed up. Yes ICly Sparfucile is an abomination. OOCly he is RPing and there is stuff going on. I'm all for there being an open debate about Spara's little Abu Grabass dungeon and a public outcry. Unfortunately what tends to happen with these things is one or two PC's will have a short scene and poof, Spara's RP gets declared off limits and he is shut down. There has been alot of this over time and it seems as if the Freeholds only real purpose is to tell people that their RP is illegal. I know all about IC vice OOC, but if you are in a leadership position you kind of have to keep things like this in mind.

2. Democratic Governance. If the whole mu votes for you to stop your plot because it's illegal, you are just as screwed over as if one NPC monarch does the same thing. Yes Democratic Governance spreads the blame out but bad leadership is bad leadership and dumb ideas are dumb ideas. I think the key here is keeping the freehold as unobtrusive as possible. The freehold needs to get behind and support good ideas, but it doesn't need to come down and stop bad ideas. Unless of course we want to employ a police force and actually get some quality RP and maybe even conflict out of making things illegal.

3. Resources. This is a big fix. The freehold should be promoting group projects and pooling resources. There should be serious IC advantages to being part of the freehold. Being outside the freehold should be damn near suicidal.

4. Politics, etc etc etc. Step 1. Have the damn meetings over forum. RPing them out is pointless unless someone plans to use Expression/Persuasion/Subterfuge to try and sway the council...even then you can use a forum. This allows the meeting to continue without using three hours of valuable time when the planets align and everyone is avalable. Forums and +myjobs are excellent for pounding out long discussions.

5. NPC's, Court Positions. This one's ticklish. The thing is with everyone having equal XP Positions are the only way to get a 'feature' character. We don't always get the best people in leader slots, this has always been a mu problem. It's far too easy for cliques to form and for the leadership to become self serving. Plot seems to be the only limited resource worth competing for on Darkwater and It seems that in the past that the freehold has really served to help certain people seize hold of plot.

6. External Influences. Yes...Yes...Oh God Yes. Darkwater feels like the whole world. At the begining the Keepers were big and scary and out to get us. I think we need some scaries to put us all in our place. We used to all be little 35 xp weaklings. The baddies need to ratchet it up a bit.

7. Events in General. There is a limited amount of shit to do for most folks. This needs to be fixed. Too often events and plots end up Starring a few PC's and grudgingly handing out bit parts to others. This is a Mu* problem across the board and is pretty hard to fix beyond larger numbers of people running their own stuff.

9. The Oath. The oath is just fine. All the oath needs to do is make it impossible to swear as a loyalist, give enough boons to make people want to join, provide some source of alliance/allegience/fellowship amongst freeholders.

10. Welcome Wagon. There are people who like this kind of RP and doing this stuff. There are people who specifically built characters to do this stuff. It's gone away over time and I don't know why although my guess is uncertainty about who's 'official' job it is. This is the pervading freehold problem, mucking about over 'official' sanction for every little thing. People should be free to just do stuff, and let the freehold bless the stuff it wants done and discourage the stuff it doesn't want done.

tl:dr RP should happen without having a council meeting to approve it. The whole point of PRPs is speed and fluidity and we've slowed it down and created apathy by making an obstacle to PRPs. This is the primary reason people say the Freehold Sucks. It doesn't provide anything but it does stand in the way of things.

Sparafucile's player here. I'm sorry that I haven't been around much to follow through on some of my RP that's been floating out there. This semester is being a real bitch and my times will probably continue to be extraordinarily limited, when they exist at all. I'm going to try and always answer mails in a roughly timely fashion though.

That being said, I want to thank Polly for chiming in in my defense, but I also want to make it clear that I would deeply welcome IC RP to the effect of people protesting, demanding explanation for, or otherwise getting all up in, Sparafucile's business. It is obviously an issue that needs to be handled with delicacy, but can be a very interesting one. And if there are ever any concerns on an OOC level, hopefully I've proved by now that I'm very open and easy-going as a player and am happy to work with people to tweak what needs to be tweaked to make them comfortable.

NotOtter wrote:

What follows is a very short summation of the current discussion on the OOC Spring job having to do with how to improve the current situation with the freehold. Some items I can address points on, others not at this time, but either way, all items are open for discussion and further clarification if people want to go into any particular items further.

1. Torture and Execution. Right now there seems to be no checks or balances on when torture or execution are considered viable options, or if they should even be at all. There is question as to whether torture and execution also fall under the idea of dealing with conflicts in a "fair and honorable" fashion.

This issue is currently being addressed only OOC in so far as I know. I don't know of any current IC action being taken, however it may be something that folds into developing a new Oath.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Torture in game on an OOC level. In RL, yes, I have a problem with it, but I accept it in so far as humans are pretty revolting creatures and there's no force on earth that will ever change that. I try not to let my OOC opinions affect my characters IC. It seems to me that it's all being blown way out of proportion, and could possibly end badly for certain players.

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2. Democratic Governance. Some have put forward that the current structure in and of itself is no good, and a more democratic form of government should take its place.

Presently, the Crown and Council rule with the Crown in charge, treating the Council as it is inclined depending on the season. Summer would not take action without Crown approval, Spring before it only used it as an advisory board. Further details on this are incorporate in Point 4.

Is democracy a big part of the Changeling theme? I'm not the biggest fan of bucking core theme on any game. It tends to (in my experience) become something along the lines of drinking skim milk instead of full cream. Full cream tastes much better! And it's healthier for you! Because that's the closest comparason I can make. I LIKE the fact that there's a Crown and a Council. The Crown, in my limited understanding, plays a fairly important roll. I mean, I suppose one could try and base something off Royalty in a similar way to the Brits and have the Crown as a figure head and form a Parliament from the Council. But yeah, still not my ideal.

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3. Freehold Resources. Presently there's very little that freehold members get other than bonuses to certain stats that non-freehold members don't. Develop more useful resources and perks to incline others to join.

I've got nothing here, but am open to ideas. How exclusionary do we want to get? How vested are people in the idea of a shit or get off the pot approach? Comments are welcome.

As Polly mentions, the Freehold should offer enough that it makes it seem like NOT being in the Freehold is possibly about as awful as it can get without being snatched back by your Keeper.
With the current rule about having only 1 Character at a time as a sworn member of the freehold, this could lead to some fun non-freehold RP for those who have more than 1 Changeling.
I know sometime back there were mutterings about another freehold, or something similar forming in Forks. I don't really know what happened there, but I still think it could be a good idea. Also leading to Inter-freehold politics. Or something. Just a thought.

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4. Proactive Government. Have the Councilors take a more proactive role in the concerns of their Courts and its individual members ICly.

This one's a double edged sword. Lack of enthusiasm makes it difficult sometimes to get seats voted in, summarily with lack of enthusiasm the Councilors have little inclination to do anything. What they SHOULD be doing is serving as the first contact for their Court to the Crown, possibly resolving issues at their level when they can and upping it to the next level - the Crown - when they can't, or when it's such a broad concern that it's everybody's problem.

One possibility would be to have an added 'bonus' to being a councilor. I mean, over and above the bonuses gained by being a member of the freehold. If it's tasty enough, then it might spark a bit more enthusiasm among PC's to vie for the position. I think that to have a more Proactive Government is something that is secondary to improving the bonuses gained by being a member of the Freehold to begin with. Again, this is something that goes hand in hand with point 2 above.

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6. Staff Alts & NPCs. Fewer staff alts and staff NPCs in leadership positions; likewise create more positions within the Court for PCs to strive for. Likewise, less emphasis on NPCs in plots.

I got nothing, but comments are welcome and so are ideas/examples for Court positions.

Everyone is entitled to RP and enjoy the game. Staff especially, as they work to keep the game running for the rest of us to enjoy.

That said, I believe that first option to leadership positions should be offered to non-staff characters first. I also think that either a character is an NPC *or* a PC. It shouldn't be chopped and changed at the whims of the Character's Owner. Whether they're a staff member or not. It would be nice to have plots more centrally focused on Player Characters. Though that doesn't really affect me at the moment because I'm in the wrong timezone and scenes of that nature usually happen when I'm sleeping .

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7. Public Politics. Have the political happenings occur in a more public, IC format to allow others to see it in action and possibly have a hand in manipulating it.

My only comment to this is that handling a lot of issues IC can be dreadfully boring for the people involved, and resolving issues generally comes along faster via +job and handled OOCly. That said, per Alister Winter does plan to hold more open courts to hear people out and for them to come get to know/watch/experience the Crown in action.

I agree that the council meetings would probably be better done via +job or something. Then it's not so dependant on everyone being available at the same time.

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8. External Influences. Some form form of conflict coming in from outside the freehold. Summarily, developing diplomatic ties with other freeholds as well as supernatural groups.

Olivia is currently the freehold's werewolf liaison, however she would be interested in giving up this hat to someone else. That's the only diplomatic tie I have hard info on. The werewolves, unlike for example, psychics, have a society one can extend diplomatic relations to. Staff should be alert to ideas of interacting with other freeholds, naturally!

See Polly's reply...I'm all for that!
Also, I have a character in the pipeline that might be interested in that particular Hat....unless my timezone is too much of an issue, but that doesn't need to be discussed here

[/quote] 9. Social Events. More social events. But more importantly, social events people can be INVOLVED in, as opposed to just standing around sipping chardonnay.

Done! Check out the events Holland currently has planned. They should be wicked fun! [/quote]

They sound fun...having read the bboards. I'll likely not be able to attend them with my character, for much the same reason as I've stated a few times

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10. A simplified Freehold Oath.

The current one is inadequate, we know. It's being worked on as we speak.

*thumbs up!*




And that's all from me for the time being

I agree that torture, like rape, can be an interesting dark thing to play out ICly. And that monarchy is more thematic than democracy. But if my character has issues with these things... he's not really going to go hook up with a giant autocratic organization that supports them, you know?

I think it's perfectly fair that the Freehold will do things that don't please a lot of people, ICly; I just think that when this is the case, people should stop being surprised OOC that this makes a lot of people not want to join up. I mean, I have characters attached to the Freehold right now even though it gets me no play because it makes sense for them to do so IC. Similarly, when the Freehold does stuff they strongly disagree with, they're probably not going to join up, whether or not there's any RP attached.

Commenting on one thing in particular that stood out to me: The politicking via +jobs.

I understand that getting people together is hard, near impossible in fact. But +jobs keep everyone else in the dark, it takes the RP off of the grid. I'm not saying not to use it at all, because it's absolutely necessary to do so - but do not let it exchange RP around the issues either. If talking about stuff on the council board, then also inform the court members about what is being discussed, somehow. Let people in.

Overally, Courtless comments have been the following:

Either no issues are had with the freehold, or that mostly, they are so 'new' to the city that they could use someone in an official position to be a 'meet and greeter' and help them enter life in city and freehold. This is pretty much covered in Point 11, the Welcome Wagon in Olivia's post.

Tara wrote:

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With the current rule about having only 1 Character at a time as a sworn member of the freehold

Actually, 'news alts' says you can have not more than TWO characters benefiting from the Freehold.


My thoughts on other things:

Torture: I think it's safe to say that IC/OOC, there are people who are looking to fix this view for the freehold. I can understand those who ICly have reason to be against it, and even those that are OOC twitchy about it. Bad business? You betcha. But sometimes tough love is needed. Should it be publicly condoned ICly? Probably not, and likely won't be when rules and views are discussed ICly.

Government: We have tried having a PC run things which worked. Sometimes. Staff attempted to see if it might be better having a NPC run things so PCs wouldn't be so drained and burnt out from holding the crown. We've seen good things and bad things from both sides of the coin. As mentioned, the Councilors were intended to be an Advisory Board of sorts in the beginning - a way to have everyone in the Freehold to have a voice in major decisions. This does bog things down to some degree. I think Monarchs need to remember even the President has the final veto power if need be, and things are taking too long for a decision to be made amongst the Councilors.

Freehold: There's another topic about how the freehold should be worked as for keeping stats. I like it a lot. As for it's Resources and such, It comes down to how Big and Bad do you want your Freehold to be? Do we do like wolves and basically say -- this is our territory, if you're not part of our territory, then tough shit, you gotta get out or else. Will it limit some people's RP? Maybe, yeah. Will some people be grumpy? Yes, since you can't make everyone happy. But with all the recent Gentry activity, I could also see Freeholders looking at unpledged with a wary eye and thought towards Loyalist leanings. There's a lot of Plot hooks that could come from whichever approach the Freehold takes. And in the end, it might come down to how the current Monarch wants to run things. /ramble

Staff Alts & NPCs: The one thing I have to say here: While offering positions to PCs is the way to go, when you have NO volunteers, or only those who really aren't in a position to try for that position.. sometimes staff alts/npcs must step up. I also think people who are WAY idle and aren't drumming up RP in their Court appointed position, should also either willingly step down, or be asked to do so by current Monarch and replaced with someone eager and willing to do the job. If you hold a Court position, you should be out there drumming up RP amongst the freehold and populace. I wouldn't go so far as setting rules about how much you should be out there and RPing, but I would think you should be doing something besides sitting idle or even frozen as has been the case in the past.

Public Politics: Again, this comes with having a Monarch who's visible and outgoing who is willing to set themselves in public and be seen. I know that a Monarch needs some private time or personal/motley RP as well, so my BIG suggestion here, would be whatever Monarch comes, set up dates/times when they can be found in public and open for whatever is needed of them from freeholders and even non-freeholders. But do not forget to take some time for themselves as well, or we'll have a burnt out Monarch who disappears or hardly comes out to play. Some issues could be brought out for discussion and debate as well, to get the public more involved. It might be boring to some, but anything is better than nothing at times! And could actually fun in some ways to hear other IC opinions about things from time to time.

External Influences: This could be fun. The freehold in Forks was denied as just not enough people even 'living' there ICly for one. I wouldn't put up a freehold there, but keep it open for those who do not want to deal with a freehold - especially if the Freehold takes the stance of - pledge or get out of our territory. Always good to have open/neutral areas. But as to other freeholds beyond the game coming in? That could be fun to deal with. We have Gentry invade, why not other freeholds? OR even those along the coast who are looking for help against some fo the same Gentry who are preying on us? It's all good.

Social Events: Things are being planned. Hopefully we can get a few things set up for those in odd timezones as well to enjoy. I know Bea is looking at doing Muse jobs, but perhaps Holland can be convinced to think of a few minor events that could happen at odd hours as well.



Overall, I just hope people will give things a chance to be changed before they make any final decisions in the future of the freehold and/or game.

My take...

1. Torture and Execution.

Executing freehold members is bad. Don't do it. Unless like, they're a loyalist and you have some proof that they somehow pledged while being a loyalist. Then shoot them, shoot them fast, shoot them a lot, and keep shooting as long as there's any movement. Then when you're done, shoot a few more times just to be sure.

Executing other people is something best avoided. Unless they're a loyalist. Or you have a good reason. Like, that they have that loyalist look to their eye. See above, but add 'burn the body' to the shooting, and like, use armor piercing bullets.

Really. Loyalists are bad.

Torture is bad form, and should be avoided. We aren't the Gentry, yet. Let's try not to mimic them. Unless we have a good reason. Then, well: its probably better to just shoot them. Safer that way.

Still: mimicking the Gentry shouldn't be a common sort of thing for us to do. At least openly.

2. Democratic Governance.

Democracy is committees and bureaucracies and a great way to ensure that 49% of the people aren't happy with how things turn out. But, people seem to want a voice in how the Freehold runs: and seem to want to make it so the Freehold represents their moral ideal and outlook on life.

Considering the turning seasons I have no idea how they expect that to happen, but okay. I can't think of a way to make it work with the rotating crowns and still have it be thematic and fun, so I can't really make any suggestions here. But I also don't see disagreeing with one (or two) monarch means I'm not going to pledge again: the IC world doesn't work like that for my character. For others perhaps it does, which is cool. Your characters are your business I think it'd take Devin being the one being tortured to get him to not re-pledge. Probably that'd do it. Maybe.


3. Freehold Resources.

It could use some more along the lines of carrots: but then again maybe I should just go RP in it more. I

4. Proactive Government.

This would be very good, I think. But it goes against the democracy thing, doesn't it? Depending on who gets in charge you'll end up with a widely changing face of the Freehold: then again this is how I think it should be. It's a roller coaster, but a fun one. Hold on.

But yeah, I think the Councilors and what-not should be able to be delegated to more and more vested with authority.

6. Staff Alts & NPCs.

If there really is a preference for "staff alts" in positions of authority, that may be a problem. I don't actually think there is, but I'm sorta new. If you take away the "staff alt" half of the description of these characters, and add in qualifiers for "active" and "proactive" and "accessible", do these alts lean towards the high end of the curve when compared to other characters?

Its the active/proactive/accessible group of people that I'd like to see in positions of authority: I can RP off of them and have fun then. I'd like more of those.

7. Public Politics.

Public/open court business would be cool, to an extent. But, that's not really politics anymore. It's showmanship: the politics will still go on behind closed doors. But that's okay. The spectacle of the public charade of politics can be fun to watch.

8. External Influences.

This is a great idea. I'm not sure what to suggest it be: maybe the Bureau? The problem is it'd be good if it were something that were focused on the sphere in total, but which the Freehold to an extent protected against: but only its members. If its a general threat that we battle against, then in effect we're soldiers for All Changeling Kind, and so there's no reason for non-holders to join up.

hmm.

9. Social Events.

+1

10. A simplified Freehold Oath.

+1

11. Welcome Wagon.

+1

I'd like to add just two notes.

The important one first: While condensing news files, we've re-written "news behavior" to include all severe physical and emotional abuse as something that it's the right of every player to avoid. This includes torture. Don't let this derail the discussion (if you have issue with this, @mail or page staff on the game), and I don't know how it's been played out, but it's the right of every player to say "no" to this kind of role-play.

The minor staff-side note: We stopped with the influence of the Gentry on Port Angeles because of player complaints that there was too much of it. If you'd like to see more of that now, let our handy Changeling Lead (Pink) or your friendly neighborhood Muse know.

I first started posting this in the poll-sections, but decided it fitted better here.

I think there is confusion about the oath and how it works.

As I understand it, Fealty and BAnishment is always part of a Freehold oath.

Fealty, quoted from the book, states:

The Fealty pledge is a powerful and unique pledge task. Only an oath involving an aknowledged lord of a freehold may incorporate the fealty task. In this, the lord binds the one taking the oath to obey the laws of the freehold and to work according to his talents and abilities to defend the freehold in all ways.

There's no room for interpretation in that; if you swear, you swear to use your abilities to defend the freehold in all ways. You swear to follow the laws. So yes, this means that you have to do stuff to defend the Freehold if there's a threat (and the current oath in Darkwater says as much). You don't have to fight, but you have to use your abilities to help somehow. ANd this is sorta the point, isn't it? So, nothing wrong with that, and this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone - but I can certainly see how that would make some people stop and pause, especially when they don't feel the trust in the rulership, or they don't even get information on how things are ran, or don't even /know the crown and can't reach the crown/.

Why would you swear such a serious oath to an unknown entity, and with so little apparent organisation in place? Especially in a place where they're not even approached to do so, or pushed to do it, given incentives to do so? Why would you swear such an oath when their own Court is in shambles, and there's no leadership noticeable? How can they know that they are in fact protected and are getting something back?

Well, obviously, some do - I mean, the Freehold has what, 50 something members right now? More? I imagine many are old PCs. But some old PCs don't swear. They swore it before, when the oath was the same. So, it's not the oath, is it? It's the whole organisation.

The problem seem to be what you get back. As said before, the Freehold doesn't offer anything you can't get anyway. There's been a shuffle somewhere, the Freehold lost its oomph - due to many factors, I am sure, and those are being discussed in other threads.

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1. Torture and Execution. Right now there seems to be no checks or balances on when torture or execution are considered viable options, or if they should even be at all. There is question as to whether torture and execution also fall under the idea of dealing with conflicts in a "fair and honorable" fashion.

This topic like some have said has to be taken as an Rp mechanic and not taken personally. Torture in some aspects of the game theme do exist. In Lords of Summer the Winter Court has the Lord of the Inhospitable Chamber which is an interrogator to extract information from prisoners. They can use many forms of torture physical and mental to do such. We do not use the book but it is still a part off the theme itself. Unfortunately Icly it got out. Even under Freehold Punishments as per the core book its said that on average, cause there are always exceptions to the rule, when someone broke the rules imprisonment was considered being worse then the Gentry as thats what they did to all Lost. It was more accepted to be executed then locked away again. The most common form of punishment was Banishment from a Freehold which was still considered harsh enough. This is all thematic stuff that i would like to see on a personal level adhered to and people realize this is what could happen if you break the rules.

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2. Democratic Governance. Some have put forward that the current structure in and of itself is no good, and a more democratic form of government should take its place.

Someone already said it prior, having a democracy takes away from the theme itself. The Monarch is chosen by the Wyrd and to changeling's this should be seen as a big deal. The Wyrd controls us all and all our characters have their own understandings of such. The problem with the Freehold government in my opinion is there is not enough active players to run it properly. There should be some spots for players to take up positions in the freehold but some aspects of the government for it to run smoothly should be staff controlled and npc controlled. Freeholds were designed so the lost can band together to remain protected from the Gentry and the new world they live in. Services like a Militia can not be done properly cause we just dont have the player base. We should have an NPC militia under the control of staff or given control to say the head of the militia ICly that can be called upon if there is a problem. This is just an example. I do not even know if we should have Ic Monarchs, perhaps only allow smaller positions to PC's or look in Lords of Summer for Court positions to fill PC's in and those PC's have to understand if they take a position there expected to bump up RP, be present and active to be able to hold such a position.

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3. Freehold Resources. Presently there's very little that freehold members get other than bonuses to certain stats that non-freehold members don't. Develop more useful resources and perks to incline others to join.

Like the last topic i throw this back to staff. Certain resources from the Freehold should be set in place on an NPC level. Someone to provide fake Id's for starting characters and perhaps scenes set up foor the future if pc's need more to generate RP, NPC run militia so players know there is support and will be more willing to join the freehold for protection it can provide, not when half the militia isnt logged on or sitting idle in a room etc.

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4. Proactive Government. Have the Councilors take a more proactive role in the concerns of their Courts and its individual members ICly.

I agree with this and again say those who take a position of power has to understand they need to be active, they need to talk to their memebers and generate court RP to the best of their ability. If they can or do not have the time to do it they shouldnt take the spot.

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5. The Redoubt.The freehold Hollow is an enormous XP sink; suggest alternative options for its upkeep.

I say either refer this to staff and allow the Freehold to have a centerplace and take it out of players hands less they want to or we may need to take it down. If there is already base NPC support for the freehold i do not know about then this needs to be reviewed.

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6. Staff Alts & NPCs. Fewer staff alts and staff NPCs in leadership positions; likewise create more positions within the Court for PCs to strive for. Likewise, less emphasis on NPCs in plots.

As per the theme of most of my responses more NPC and staff control is needed. Not for all aspects of the freehold just on a few like protection, market perhaps, the larger aspects of a freehold that we can not fill with player base. Some of the many positions we have open i think could be removed as you get to many people together it just turns into endless conversation with 15 people putting in their suggestions and going around in circles. To many cooks spoil the broth.

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7. Public Politics. Have the political happenings occur in a more public, IC format to allow others to see it in action and possibly have a hand in manipulating it

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YEs i have said i will do my best to do so and Spring did this very well. I was not hear for most of Summer or Autumn but people have told me the open courts died off. Sure people have real lives and may not be able to be around, but if this happens people got to step down and let others step up to do these things. Some people who play here dont even want to deal with politics and just do small RP which is also fine, but sometimes we need more involvement from those you never see.

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8. External Influences. Some form form of conflict coming in from outside the freehold. Summarily, developing diplomatic ties with other freeholds as well as supernatural groups.

I had a good RP session with Pink i think with another Freehold meeting their Winter court starting to make some deals with anothr cities npc court to link us together all secrete like Winters due and it was a lot of fun....then ya had to leave and it died. Even if ya had to go it was still a lot of fun to interact with the NPC's and have that possible resource in the works. I think we need more of that.

Okay, I suppose I'll toss in here.

Firstly the Death/Torture bit. This is -supposed- to be divisive. ICLy that is, you're supposed to complain and work against it, find ways around it. That is part of that Drama/conflict thing we all want right?

I can't tell you how much I hate -HATE- the idea that this is being discussed OOCly, the only thing that should be discussed OOCLy about it is if the player is doing something that is shitbaggery or ruinous (I.E as Thenomain said, violating rules, and that's handled with @ban, not forums). Heck, there's entirely too few evil/bad characters out there to begin with, so dipping into this in any way to limit the few that are is silly.

The entire idea behind playing creatures that live to a narrow ideal like these seasons is that it is hypocritical. Springs may hate torture, they may want life and happy-happy, but it can't be that way, it's one dimensional so they need the other seasons to keep things from falling apart. Some of those seasons are fear and terror oriented. So while you can complain and rail against /them/ we need /them/ to keep the wheel turning.

Death and torture should be story oriented. Can the players find a way to keep someone from dying? A better course? A way to get information or punishment without a car battery to the nuts? That's the thing, you should have to /work/ to keep it from happening. If someone ends up with a red hot poker enema it's a failure on the love side to play.

There is nothing worse then when things are oocly handled. It just kills the game, it leads to stagnation and frustration.

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Democracy, well this is a kicker, alot of the other statements are very well thought out and good. My personal opinion is that players(including staff) should have the council positions and the monarch(or whatever) should be an NPC unless a player is heavily committed to ----short----- timing the position as part of a plot. But that's me, I've always felt PC over bosses was a mistake.


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Pretty much all the other things amount up to one thing, and that's activity and plots. You feel more about, apart of, and interested in a group when that group is doing something or vying against something. Plots involving the freehold, growing out of the freehold or about the freehold pretty much cover every other topic in this line. We as players have to help out staff by thinking about our own plotlines that could evolve/revolve around the freehold.

Is there a big bad that was here before the freehold? Maybe activity is awakening it and it's starting to take action
Is there a past freehold before this one? Where did they go? Did they leave anything?
Is there an opposing force, maybe the next freehold down the highway has a deal to sacrifice changelings to a monster, are they raiding our peoples for their needs?

Etc...

Any ways, just my random rambling prose. I added this because after sitting through the War & Peace that was this +myjob I had to say something or I'd explode.

My humble, and likely, unpopular opinions.

Screw democracy. The Wyrd picks a Monarch. The Wyrd doesn't pick a group of people to rule, it picks /a/ person to wear the crown. Having elected people to speak with the Crown for a court is fine, but this isn't a democracy. There's no election for the crown as there is with a president. Staffer alt or staff controlled NPC or not, this person should be allowed to set the rules they want to. This also comes back to my opinion on the oath. The Crown gets to make the rules, and the Freehold oath should be to that crown and their rules moreso than the entire thing. This also has watered down, I fear, some of the courts appeal. I've seen and felt nothing different from Summer to Autumn to Winter now.

This is a /horror/ story-telling game. If the thought of a PC or NPC being tortured (it can be scened out if needed, or if the PC doesn't want to, can be skipped over and the end result is the same), well, I fear to inform you, you've missed the fact that this is supposed to be a dark and dangerous game.

Alexander wrote:

This is a /horror/ story-telling game. If the thought of a PC or NPC being tortured (it can be scened out if needed, or if the PC doesn't want to, can be skipped over and the end result is the same), well, I fear to inform you, you've missed the fact that this is supposed to be a dark and dangerous game.

You said this far better than I did.

And as far as I know, what few situations of torture was done was to NPC Loyalists. Period. I do not know of any PC who has been held or punished at all.

Gwen is currently being held, but not tortured, if I recall.

Alexander wrote:

Gwen is currently being held, but not tortured, if I recall.

She also took herself to the dungeon, and kept herself there willingly. And has since been released into care of the Bishops. (ICly this is to be announced soon, I think.)

Yes, Gwen did put herself willingly into the dungeon. After that she was being kept there. And she was punish. Such punish will be announced, I'm sure.



And since it came up. Lords of Summer is not to be used on Darkwater in any manner. It is not game canon.

Alexander wrote:

My humble, and likely, unpopular opinions.

Screw democracy. The Wyrd picks a Monarch. The Wyrd doesn't pick a group of people to rule, it picks /a/ person to wear the crown. Having elected people to speak with the Crown for a court is fine, but this isn't a democracy. There's no election for the crown as there is with a president. Staffer alt or staff controlled NPC or not, this person should be allowed to set the rules they want to. This also comes back to my opinion on the oath. The Crown gets to make the rules, and the Freehold oath should be to that crown and their rules moreso than the entire thing. This also has watered down, I fear, some of the courts appeal. I've seen and felt nothing different from Summer to Autumn to Winter now.

This is a /horror/ story-telling game. If the thought of a PC or NPC being tortured (it can be scened out if needed, or if the PC doesn't want to, can be skipped over and the end result is the same), well, I fear to inform you, you've missed the fact that this is supposed to be a dark and dangerous game.

if this was facebook i would like this post. I think you hit the nail on the head. If a monarch of a new season doesnt want councilors it shouldnt have them, Yeah could it cause major political problems in the freehold...yes and thyats politics! some people like to play the political part so let them try and sway the people etc etc. Those who dont want in then thats there problem or who knows try and overthrow the monarch or something. Everything can create a good RP plot and remember there are PrP's and Muses to help you run these things. We as players create the game, the Storyteller tells the game.

I think it's safe to say that the monarchy isn't going anywhere. If people want to push for the monarch to be less of an authority and more of a figurehead, it'll have to happen IC, and it may likewise depend on the monarch. For some it may be wise. For others it might get in the way of progress.

Right now, each monarch uses their Council in different ways and ascribes them varying levels of authority.

NotOtter wrote:

I think it's safe to say that the monarchy isn't going anywhere. If people want to push for the monarch to be less of an authority and more of a figurehead, it'll have to happen IC, and it may likewise depend on the monarch. For some it may be wise. For others it might get in the way of progress.

Right now, each monarch uses their Council in different ways and ascribes them varying levels of authority.

Actually I was asking for the exact opposite. A monarch who rules. Who has the power (IC and OOC) to dictate laws, mette out punishment, that sort of stuff. Someone who, for a season, /is/ the law.

Here is the torture issue as I see it.

Yes, this is a horror game. Bad things happen in the game world. We shouldn't pretend they don't. Frankly, harping on this point every time someone brings up an issue is condescending. We're not stupid. We know what game we're playing. Spare us the the lecture.

It's a horror game. We get it. However, there are topics that run a little too close to home, and playing out the consequences of them is not fun. Rape, for example, is a restricted topic for a reason: when it hits the grid openly, it becomes an all-consuming thing no one can ignore. It takes over. I think we can all agree it happens in the game world. But we don't play it out. At least not outside our private groups where everyone agrees this is where they want the RP to go. And if someone says OOC they don't want to deal with it -- you drop it. That's the rule. It's a good rule.

I am NOT advocating a torture policy. Thenomain already discussed why this isn't necessary. There is no reason to go there. The only reason I mention the rape policy is to illustrate how there are some topics that, because of their close proximity to RL, run the risk of become all-consuming and no fun, even if they are strictly IC speaking thematic to the game.

The problem is not torture. It's the freehold having a quasi-official public attitude of WOO HOO TORTURE WE TOTALLY DO THAT! When the government openly endorses it, everyone involved in the government is forced into the voyeur's chair. Now I have to deal with this, and damn it, I log in to play dark fairies and monsters, not to relive the Bush years. Now I have three options. I can either rewrite my PC so that he no longer cares and is -- incidentally -- no longer the character I want to play, I can have the same debates IC I'm sick of having RL, or I can leave the freehold and find the RP I actually want to have -- you know, dark fairies and monsters -- elsewhere.

Guess which is in my best interests to do.

The answer isn't to ban torture from the game. The answer is have the freehold publicly decry it. Then, take the gaolor aside, and say: here is the list of circumstances when you will do it, and if anyone finds out, we will deny we knew. There is your intrigue. There is your dark RP about the hard choices. It's not in the poo-flinging public arguments of Torture Is Bad vs. Torture Is Awesome. It's a debate that will never get resolved and it takes over everything.

As for the argument that it only happens to NPCs so why are people freaking out IC? My character doesn't know the difference between a PC and an NPC. From his perspective they are all people, and there is nothing to say what happens to them can't happen to him. So that's how I play him.

I know OOC it's not going to happen to my PC, but my PC does not, and when the government is saying WOO HOO WE TOTES DO THIS IT'S THE COOLEST THING he has no IC reason to assume they'll think twice about slapping him in thumbscrews if he sneezes out of turn. And that's how I'm going to play him. Which brings us back to why PCs are leaving the freehold.

The problem is easily addressed by having the freehold decry the act publicly, then keep it on the down low. The people who want to go there get to go there. The people who don't want to deal with the topic don't have to. The freehold ceases to look like it's being run by gibbering psychopaths with zero regard for human (or in this case Lost) life which does, incidentally, give my PC zero incentive to interact with it at all.

If this happened, my character would remain. I can't speak for anyone else, but folks asked why people were leaving; I explained why my PC is and what it would take to make him stay. Take from it what you will.

I always thought of the Freehold (probably due to the idea of having a king/queen) as more medieval and less like today's government. But I agree in that it shouldn't be public knowledge. If it's for the plot and against an npc, a scene and you're more or less done. You report publically what you found, but not how you found it.

Each season has their own form of torture. Although Spring's may be a bit prettier than the rest.

Allow me to condense my opinion.

Monarchy is thematic, and yeah we should by theme have a monarchy. It should be fun and maybe some seasons we have a crazy monarch who does fucked up shit and hilarity ensues. There are good IC ideas that don't play out ooc.

How do we do this without turning into the same bullshit trickle down leadership structure that every boring fucked up vamp sphere has suffered since the 90's?
Three things.

1. The Oath, the Law, The Crown, needs to have power, if you fuck up and break the rules you should suffer consequences. These consequences should be playable and interesting. We need to be creative here. Currently, if you have a problem you die or are removed from play or the consequences generally make your PC unplayable. This is bullshit hangover from dumbass vampspheres. We are all grownup enough to live and play through negative consequences without having to PK our accusers somewhere down the line. Preserving playability should be the OOC factor in the back of our mind during IC decision making.

2. Intrusiveness. The Crown shouldn't micromanage, unless being a lunatic micromanaging mad King George would be interesting. Early iterations of the crown ended up having to stamp every minor action and it burnt them out. When the council had a pressing need to debate Freehold Law, council meetings were devoted to giving a thumbs up or down on minor issues. The Crown needs to stick to large all encompassing issues and leave individual issues alone. This is not a libertarian pose, this is simply good ooc logistical sense. It prevents the crown from becoming an overwhelmed de facto staffer at best, and an apathetic, non-responsive vamp prince at worst.

3. Using Forums, +myjobs and other communication of the sort helps us fix this problem. We can have a completely disfunctional, totalitarian, insane freehold IC, that operates in a sane, efficient and responsive manner OOCly. This is the number one issue with crown politics is that we need to keep OOC management separate from IC 'leadership'. I personally am down for whatever at the IC top, but I can't abide a broken clique fucking up the game because it's ICly 'thematic'. Like I said, the forum and other forms of discussion are a very good means of remedying this problem. We avoid the oWoD Vamp Sphere BS by OOCly having things be transparent and approachable even if they are totalitarian and byzantine IC.

Ok, so that was longer than I intended, management and government are hard.

We should not be able to dictate how a monarch should be acting. The monarch is chosen by the Wyrd for a reason, even if the person who is chosen sucks hardcore and puts the freehold in shambles perhaps thats a lesson whe Wyrd is to teach its people then the next monarch is wonderful and picks up the pieces. If staff is going to continue allowing players to be the monarch and hold the crown we should not be telling that person how to run things, they are the chosen one give them a chance. As lost we do not have to follow of course only limited to our pledge of we made it and that is it.

Its part of roleplay! not all of us are going to like a monarch or a court member and some of us will love a monarch. its part of the cycle that has to be accepted. I do not want to see theme pulled out of the game at all thats why perasonally im here and the monarchy is a big part of the theme that needs to remain. There are aspects of the game that may need to be altered to a mush pattern but the monarchy is something in my opinion needs to remain. The monarch is in control and the monarch is the one who has to generate his own power and prove to its people the freehold works. Its not going to happen everytime and thats part of the roleplay and the fun.