Crafting ideas

The staff of Darkwater has been discussing the idea of changing up the crafting system here on the game for some time. Through deliberations, Thenomain has suggested the following.

-One crafting job per person in at a time.

-Crafting times are dependent on the “complexity” of the item. Page 129 of the core book has these listed. We are still trying to find a way to make crafting times matter so that merits like Brownie’s Boon are worthwhile.

-Instead of a single roll to craft a single item you crafts parts of the item. For example, a semi automatic handgun would give, say, five parts (barrel, slide, body, sights, and “mechanics”). So each piece would be crafted on their own (X number of successes depending on the “complexity” of the item) and then a roll to assemble the gun. Reasoning behind this is you could foul up the sights but not damage the barrel you already had made, or completely flub the soufflé shouldn’t make your glazed pheasants taste any worse.

Thoughts?

I don't know that only one crafting job at a time makes sense, since it's possible to work on more than one project at a time, although doing it that way should make both jobs slower.

However, since I know next to nothing about the game theory behind crafting, the rest of it sounds fine to me.

I'm not a crafter, so I have only limited input, but:

1. I think this is a fine idea, but perhaps allow people who own a Workshop to work on multiple projects up to the level of the shop?

2. One roll per day to the job, with a set (and known beforehand) number of successes required to 'finish' the item. Or they can make an extended roll, and just know that each of those roles represents one day of crafting, and they can stop when they reach the required number of successes.

3. I...can't say I'm a fan. It feels too fiddly and adds irritating aspects with no real benefits or fun added.

Like any system or rule change, the first question is: what do you want to achieve?

Realism? Easier +job handling? More importance on workshops?

For crafting times, I prefer realism. Both in length of work needed, wait times, and interleaving of projects.

As for rolls, I would like to see an end to the use of any system that allows you more rolls based on your skill pool. This multiplies out the value of every other modifier to a ridiculous extreme. Why do Artifice 3, Eternal Summer 3, your Hedgespun tool, your workshop, etc give you more dice overall because you started with a higher pool?

More importantly, how can you even try to design a system where the beginner has a 3 pool +2 tools and gets at most 15 total dice (6 from that tool), but a maxed out (and trust me there are MANY) have a pool of 10-11, and they have total pools of 25 dice (where that same +2 tool would be worth 10-12 dice) for a total of perhaps 275 dice.

Avg 3 successes vs 90+, or 130+ if they are an Artisan. That's not a scale you can work with.

I'd also like to see the Manikin and Artisan Kith bonuses reduced to an area smaller than ALL crafts, such as a specialty, like their own material, or artistic pieces for artists. And perhaps allow at least the manikin or a homebrew kith a 9-again or 8-again with science based production of goods.

A few reactions. I don't know how useful they are.

1. This wouldn't change anything for me, really. I've always assumed I should be waiting for one job to be finished before requesting the next, except under a couple extraordinary circumstances, in which case I've explained them in my request and, generally, apologized. I also tend to try to leave a semi-realistic amount of time between jobs, which ties into item 2.

It helps that Tabitha's projects are usually for other people; I'm usually roleplaying both the commission and the delivery, and often consultation along the way at the end of a design phase, and it's not like Tabitha's going to turn up 6 hours after the commission with a masterful piece of work in hand, no matter how prompt and efficient the crafting staffer has been about helping me finish the job. With Brownie's Boon, I can realistically shorten the time, but I think one job that's serious enough to need a +request at a time is plenty.

In regard to what Textbook says, I agree that it *is* possible to work on more than one thing at a time. However, for me, at least, there is always a lot of background work that Tabitha's doing which doesn't require a +request. The requests are for the extraordinary work - either sizable batches of things, or fancy work that confers bonuses of some kind or another. It seems reasonable to me - for /my/ roleplay, and I'm definitely only speaking about my own roleplay, here - that there only be one extraordinary project going on at a time.

2. Se above. Again, this is something I've always handled in rp, regardless of how long the job takes to be completed. As far as I'm concerned, mechanics =/= roleplay. It doesn't matter if I get a job handled in one day: fiddly inlay work takes time. I have no objection to being told how long it takes as part of the job, if staff want to take over that part of things.

3. This seems like a measure taken to address a problem I don't have, and it seems to add steps, fuss, and bother for no gain. However, if other people are getting frustrated because they're failing single big rolls and thus losing the entire job, and staff want to take this approach to help resolve that frustration, I suppose I can adapt to the extra fiddly-ness of it. It seems like a nuisance - and, ironically, like a nuisance designed to help me in ways I have not yet found the need to be helped. And it seems like it makes that much more work for the crafting admin. But again, if it's useful for other people, I'm flexible.


==> After a discussion with Purple about some of the thinking that went into the third suggestion, I am feeling more positive about that one as well. I think it might be reasonable for the admin and the crafter to discuss whether a specific job needs to be/would benefit from being broken down like that or is simple enough not to be (with the staffer having the final word, because I'm not crazy), but I can see benefits in making an item more customized and interesting that way.

Players have suggested the following:

You make your full extended. If you fail to hit the target number, you do another extended at a penalty. So, for example:

Strength 4, Crafts 4, Craft.Blacksmithing spec.

Extended 1=9 dice rolled 9 times.
Extended 2=8 dice rolled 8 times.
Extended 3=7 dice rolled 7 times.
Et cetra.

Staff are talking about it at this moment but we would like more feedback if at all possible please.

If there are some problems that are arising from people either failing their rolls, or stacking their stats in purely number-crunching, min-maxing ways because they are worried about failing their rolls, then this seems like an extremely good HR to lower the bar a little. People wouldn't need to have ungodly dice pools in order to succeed, with a rule like that. And since ungodly dice pools tend to break the game in terms of rp, I'd be a fan.

It's not a good idea. It makes any crafting job a gimme.

It takes the already way skewed dice range explained above, and adds in yet another way to make the higher pools and all their modifiers show up, thus increasing the difference between skill levels, and again multiplying the value of modifiers.

Let me summarize:

Define base as (stat+skill.specialty) range in most cases from 1-5 and (-2)-6 or (-1)-11 +modifiers total. Most of the time (anything that changes a stat will alter this)*.
*Eternal Summer 3 +0-6ish, hedgespun tool +1 attribute, and hedgespun tool +3 skill

Define total as (base + modifiers) ranges (-1)-11 and -lots to + **
** workshop +3, artifice 3 +Wyrd, blueprint +3, willpower +3/4(for summers with str), teamwork +0-( approx Total/3)

Extended roll as is

(base) X (total)

vs

(base²+base)/2 X (total) See here

Let's compare you base stat 2 skill 2 (total 4) apprentice vs stat 3 skill 3 (total 6) journeyman skill levels with no other modifiers

Extended roll
4 dice pool: 4 X 4 = 16 dice total
6 dice pool: 6 X 6 =36 dice total

Proposed extended additive try again system
4 dice pool: (((4X4)+4))/2= 10 X 4 = 40 dice total
6 dice pool: (((6X6)+6))/2= 42 X 6 = 252 dice total

Now imagine that with your worst case scenario the 5 str 5 crafting + specialy summer who is rolling 5 + 7 str, 6+3 skill for a 21 base, with +15 modifiers (assuming a standard assistant) and a 36 base total

God of Crafting: (((21X21)+21))/2= 220.5 X 36 = 7938 dice total

10-again dice average .33 success per die, and something like .39 on 9-again, and .43 on 8-again.

TLDR: Select a number of rolls that every crafting task will get. Period. Could be 1, 3 5, 20. The reason for more than one roll? Just to even out extremely bad or good rolls, and to give you more successes to grade the performance by, or use to "buy" the features of what is being made like the current system does. I recommend 3.

Right now, all crafting jobs are gimme's and that's what we'd like to move away from. As is right now, any mundane "out of the book" item doesn't require a roll to make so long as you have the skill required. Example: Crafts 5 to make a weapon with 5 damage or armor with a total rating of 5 (plate is 3/2, together is 5). Which is great and fine for Werewolves because to make a Fetish you have a whole other set of rolls (average 4-5 other types of rolls, plus the risk of death if you piss a spirit off). Changelings don't have that. One big craft roll and boom, that's it. That's one reason why we'd like to change the crafting system; to make it balanced across the two super spheres and to permit mere mortals the chance to make stuff as well.

Your suggestion Sanger would work for Changelings with the god pools (no where else have I seen dice pools of 300+), but it'd again further penalize those who DON'T want to spend all of their xp/cg points to make themselves an awesomesauce crafter. Even a master smith can foul up a blade. Even the best tailor can hem a pant leg too short. With these pools there is no chance for failure and that's not realistic when everything else in the game can fail except for Changelings crafting something.

If your goal is to allow that people with just routine pools be able to make things and exist on the same scale as expert crafters (a 4 pool vs an 8 pool) the extended roll system is BAD. Period. Adding more extended rolls to it makes it worse. Period.

If your main concern is balance between Werewolf and Lost, and Crafting is where that is happening, you'll need to analyze Werewolf vs Lost first, and then you can work on making sure Crafting doesn't tip the scales too much one way or another. Personally, I see the game as Lost first, with a still active Lost sphere, and Werewolf second which is gutted of players, Muses, PrP runners, staff, and any organization at this point, so I don't much care about werewolves. I don't see them in plate with halberds anyway, in my humble and also ignorant opinion.

I don't know how to make it clearer. Game design needs a linear difference between different pools. Not an exponential one. You want a person with a total pool of 8 to roll twice as many dice (or less) than the person with a 4 pool. They are at best, twice as good, before other modifiers.

What are the define parameters of crafting you want to see? +1 to a single trait on an item from the book? +1 to every trait as Cobalt designed the HR crafting system to be used? If the first, I'd say roll your pool once, -the damage/armor rating, if you get a success you made it, if you get an exceptional success you made the +1 version. Simple as that. If you want more options, more things you can vary, it gets more complicated.

I personally support the idea that mundane items be rated skill 1 2 or 3, and if you have that, you can make it, and rolls are reserved for exceptional works, or work under exceptionally bad circumstances.

Also: Under nwods dice system, masters aren't going to fail to make a basic item, and they shouldn't. It's not worth noting or looking for on average. Look at how much detail is devoted to exceptional failures, yet you almost never roll a chance die. Certainly not in crafting.

Select a range of results you want to see, and an idea of how hard you want them to be to achieve.
Decide how much risk you want with common production items. (So far I am guessing very little).
Tailor your rolls to reflect that. Do not use anything where you get pool² amounts, use flat multipliers, like X1, X3, X5 if you want.
Double check your math to see what chances a person who is just starting has (pool 3, tools maybe +1-+2), a starting pro (say pool 5 with +3 shop) and a master (pool 8 +3 shop) has of getting your results and make sure you are happy with that.

As Crafting admin, I wasn't pleased with the system. I have the outlines for what I would have replaced it with, but I have been told that Crafting is going in another direction, and that what I think will be kept in mind.

I cannot do better than to say decide what you want to have happen, and make sure the dice or policies make that happen and not something else.

I was told this previously by a player and I am repeating it here for the discussion.

The point of the extended roll, any extended roll, is when time is important. The point of any roll is when failure is notable.

In opposed extended checks such as the the arm-wrestling and foot-chase examples in the core book, it's important to overcome someone else's ability before yours is overcome. This is direct and interesting.

In unopposed extended checks, either you're working against a time limit (hacking the security system), your own limit (how far can you run before you collapse), or a plausibly difficult task (building your own car engine).

Crafting mainly falls under the third, but should be ready to fall under the first.

--

As a note to Sanger, we've had this discussion before: You're asking for a change to the core WoD system. It might need one for the reasons you've stated, but to do so for one system but not all systems is potentially confusing, rather than clarifying. Staff should be very careful to see the impact of the changes they make to the systems. Consistency is important to any game.

And the current HR'd crafting rules are also outside the system. Yet there they are. There is nothing difficult or contradictory to saying +roll/extended =3 and going from there. Likewise the extended = extended-1 roll + extended -2 rolls is way outside the system. it just makes the problems as i have had them described worse. Do you really want to see 8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1 rolls of a 8 base pool?

If the discussion is how do we add something without adding something, I got nothing to add to it. See what I did there?

I know what I would do were I in charge, and I don't think any crafter I have worked with would have any more difficulty using it than the current system. Note they might not agree with the logic, or the feel. I do know what it is like to admin the system in place, the noting in place, and know what its like to run a low and high skilled type in it. I've also run a large chunk of very high end characters works through it, including quite a few staff alts. Every time I veered from what was usual, I was complimented. Though of course any player can lie to your face, why would they?

I also know that no one has defined what they DO want to see as a result of changes. The one clear goal, that some routine projects for weapons and armor not have to be rolled for, is in place.

On the other hand, if you don't want to hear from me, that's fine. Just say it to my face and I'll go about my merry way.

What are the current HR crafting rules? Other than "if your skill is high enough you don't have to roll for mundane items?"

I thought I made the goal clear, but I'll elaborate. My personal goal is to make crafting across spheres (sorry, other people care about the other spheres just as much as you care about Changeling; saying they don't matter is a tad insulting) better. By better I mean there are 3 non-Changelings with Crafts 5 and two of those are with artistic specs. Go down the list to 4 and it's mostly the same: 3 or 4 non-Changelings with an artistic bent. While that's fine and all, people can play what and how they want to, I've had people say they don't want to have anything to do with Crafting because unless they're "a twinked out Changeling they don't matter in the scheme of things." That's a direct quote.

If a human or Werewolf wanted to modify a car, since they do not access to the sheer +power of Changeling contracts, it'd be near on impossible. That's something that I, personally, would like to see changed.

As a note: the decaying extended idea was built by players on the Rules channel. It's not something staff came up with.

What other HRs? Let's see, the Artisan and mannikin Kith bonuses, the entire crafting system on the wiki for hedgespun and mundane crafting. ALL of that is made up by staff, here.

Crafting across sphere's is mainly going to be an issue of who has access top the most bonuses to stats, skill, and the roll. Has anyone said that you can't craft in non-human forms for werewolves? Or is that a bonus they are just not using? Do they know about the unwritten Blue Prints rule? Do they lack gifts that add to Str, Dex, Int, Crafts? Seems like any of those could be a possibility. Do they lack the ability to speak to the spirits of an item, to enhance it? Could they HR in something? Can they make items that add to anything they want like a Hedgespun item, yes it's a Fetish. Do they have a way to get 9-again, 8-agin? Don't know. I wouldn't object to such things being a Merit that any could buy, especially mortals, in a given specialty. Sadly it would still stack with Lost things, and likely be available to them.

I don't know the system well enough, and the people I do have left. I learned all the changeling tricks from Admining during the Changeling only part of the game. Mostly from Cobalt and Moss. Make a list of every trick, every means a Werewolf has to add to their crafting pools. And while you are at it, check how much they can add to their combat or social pools, and make sure we're all balanced across those as well.

Let me mark a difference here. I am not opposed to multiple rolls of the pool. I just want everyone to have the same number of rolls, to maintain the ratio of difference in the pools. I am opposed to multiple rolls with the number being your pool.

These are your goals as I see it:

* Make the difference between any crafter mainly their skill level.
* Reduce rolls for "standard" items.
* Maybe allow some means to allow artistry level competitions. In other words some means to allow a direct comparison of efforts, for the skill side of artist creation, before throwing in personal taste and all that.

I can't tell what else you want. Do you want Bonuses to attack, defense, social skills? If you do, do you think +1 is more than enough, or do you want to see +10 weapons? +4? +4 vs Ogre Kith? Do you want mundane weapons to be boosted beyond what the Armory allows for? In other words +2 damage pistol? How about combining things like a optic sight and a laser sight and a telescopic sight, all on one gun? Do you want to note the difference between well made and stylish clothing? Trend setting and luxuriant but traditional? Do you want social skill bonuses to specific applications, like +1 Persuasion to Business types? Do you want people to be able to craft the "well made clothing" for a disguise or Expression? How about Instruments that are +3? Or even more complicated, items that add a success or allow another die to be rolled if you get a certain number of successes in using it? EG a Strat violin still probably takes 2+ successes to really benefit from it's awesome sound, so maybe it's +2 more dice if you get 2 successes. Or +1 success. How much do you want to limit the value of teamwork? The value of tools and workshops? How close do you want to track the time of crafting, and the cost? How about research, experimentation and creative inspiration?

If NOTHING else, reduce the number of rolls to the purchased with XPs Crafts (or science etc) skill. Not added to with Artifice, tools, or a fetish or anything else. Then recalibrate the system you have to make it so the best of the best can still produce the top end items you think should be createable.

Everything in my designs has been meant to reduce the value of everything but skill level, time, inspiration, and a proper work setup. Special materials figured in. It also includes ways for the players effort to add to it by descing or PrPs, and a means to say this is my special project, my masterwork of the season.

So fill out what your goals are. Even goals you like but don't know if they can be put in. Then you can start to design towards your goal.

Artisan and Manikin HR's, while they deal with crafting, is not an HR to the crafting system. The crafting system for Hedgespun, I'll give you there, but other than very loose guidelines there's not much to build one off of.

Keep in mind: WoD books are for a Storytelling system, meaning the stuff written therein are guidelines for a person to construct their game; not die hard set in stone rules that are the almighty Law. In place of a single Storyteller that directs a group of players we have a hodgepodge of people to take care of different aspects.

This is not an attempt to make Changeling and Werewolf flat equal across the board. This is to hopefully rebuild the crafting system so others NOT Changeling would be interested in it. On a game with this many people, only seeing jobs by three people means something. Asking around, a lot of people said the same two things: It's too complicated and/or I have to sink too much XP into it to be able to do anything.

The goal is to redesign the crafting system so non-Changelings can participate. Also the piecemeal system could, in theory, open up items to having more than just one bonus. Maybe a sword's hilt is so well designed that it can catch a foe's blade, giving them +1 defense? Maybe the handle is special made to their hand and chained to their wrist, giving them a bonus vs. disarm attempts. For an open ended game, the crafting system is VERY finite and personally that's one of the things I would like to see expanded.

Keeping that in mind, there would have to be checks and balances. A very well made mundane weapon shouldn't be more powerful than magical items. But would this system allow you to further customize hedgespun and maybe even give then other types of bonuses? Mayhaps so. But you would NOT be able to add more and more dice to the attack roll or to aid your defense/armor. Meaning your gun could use the sights for the +whatever to the attack roll, but could also have extended magazine capacity and a quieter action to give people a further reduced penalty when using a suppressor, for example.

The types of bonuses and such have yet to be discussed, these are examples off the top of my head. Step 1 is to get a system for rolls, then step two could be discussing the bonuses and such.

http://darkwater-mux.net/index.php/Crafting

Left side there, your HR'd mundane crafting system. Everything in use is a HR. It's not based on the extended task table from the core rules.

I come at things from design goals first, make the mechanics fit. Why? So I don't edit my expectations based on the current mechanic in place.

As an example, the old parameters were modify any value listed by 1. That was damage, armor of one or the other rating, strength minimum, durability, defense penalty. There was an add on that said you could in theory add to some skills, up to +5, with a cost of that many dots. Hedgespun was at one point no different, and anything more cost xps. Guns were not allowed to be modified, though I think combining multiple sights would have been allowed.

You could not mishmash together weapon traits like +2 to attack from surprise, or the 9-again from a weapon to another one.

Also, +1 defense because of a hilt is contrary to no adding to defense. Likewise, saying Hedgespun could do this, but mundane crafting couldn't would only make the differences worse.

First things first, find out your pool modifiers for all groups, and for the individual groups. If lost can have 28 dice, and no one else can get above 14, you can't fix the problem easily.

Having looked into it, here is something I hope will be helpful. Note that for this discussion a dice modifier does not affect the number of rolls in an extended check, a pool modifier does.

Crafting Values held by all characters

Ability 1-5 Str, Dex, Int, Wits
Skill 1-5 Crafting
Specialty 1 Any applicable specialty
Tools/WS 0-3 Tools up to Workshop +3 on DW
WP 3 DW allows WP spends on extended rolls
TW 1-7 Helpers pool/3; multiple helpers possible (avg value)
Blueprint 3 DW HR

Total 20+0-20/3

So every Crafter can have a pool up to 11, and total dice of 20 without help, 27 with one helper.

Lost Crafting Modifiers
Artifice 3 +3 to roll
Hedgespun +1-3 to Skill Pool
Hedgespun +1 to Ability Pool
Pledge Boon +1 to Skill Pool
Wyrd +1/2 Wyrd to hedgespinning

Eternal Summer 3 +0-3 for Str, 1-7 successes needed, 5+ succ gets 8-again
Summer WP +1 more for Willpower Spends affecting Str

Wizened Seeming 9-again on Dex rolls

Kiths
Riddleseeker +2 wits for scene
Earthbones +Wyrd to Str for scene
Mannikins 9-again crafts
Playmate 9-again to another as teamwork, +2 from teamwork
Artist 8-again crafts, 1 reroll
Author 8-again expression for words

Lost could add 8 dice with Items and Powers, and as much as 9 dice as a 5 Wyrd Summer EarthBones crafting with Str.

Dalu +1 Str
Fetish +1-5 dice pool

Forsaken can add 5 dice, +1 more for Strength based rolls.

Mortals+ have a wide variety of things that MIGHT apply. Thaumaturgy can add 9-again and 8-again to rolls.

So as a percentage Lost can add 40% to the common possible pool, and 45% more with str based crafting. The 8-again and 9-again are worth about +1/6th and +1/3rd OVER that.

Forsaken add about 25%, +5% with Str.

Mortals can add 9-again or 8-again, worth about +1/6th and +1/3rd.

So your largest problem is strength based crafting. Either limit it to things where Str is truly the main trait, or just say those things can't add to Crafting, and you are fairly even.

Next step: how do you make it so normal crafting can do decent work and not be massively overshadowed by master crafting pools? Get rid of any feature that multiples your pool times your pool. Like extended rolls. Again, 4 dice crafter gets 16 dice total, 8 die crafter gets 64. If you said that all projects got 3 rolls for 12 and 24 dice total, that ratio would stay constant, 4 pool always half of the 8 pool.

Or simply remove the rules option of limiting extended rolls to the dice in most crafting pools.

Of course. Then everyone could make everything with every possible bonus at once. Equal to everyone, and removes the value of powers, stat boosts, gear, and a skill or stat over 1. 2 dice or 20, with infinite rolls the crafter can get any success count they desire.

Likewise you could make it one roll, with a penalty based on how hard what they are doing it. 1 success they make it, 5+ successes they get some note for exceptional. And you could compare roll totals for artistic merit if desired.

Crafting takes time. Theoretically (and in a super-generalized WoD manner), everyone could build a working space shuttle, but it will take most longer than have.

Depends. Given how many thousands worked on a given space shuttle for how many years, that's a whole lot of helper dice. Even 1000 slightly trained idiots is worth about 600 extra dice?

Point being open ended and extended removes dots as the important part of the equation in my mind: skill in the field of endeavor. Raw dice are easy to come by, even the mortal stuff is 11 for the mortal, 9 for other factors. That means your 1+ 1 pool can be rolling 11 dice. So now everyone can make anything, in a reasonable amount of time, and you have to track time spent well enough to make it the new balancing mechanism.

Mind, to me anything like this is skill + time + material resources, so I don't think time should be ignored, far from it. I will note that Brownie Boon means that someone with their own uninterrupted workspace can fit a month of time into 2 days with a glamour fountain. So it too is not a strong limiter.

I'll leave Staff to it.

That is one of the key issues. Time. If there was a time part, that'd be fine, letting people roll until they eventually get it except in time sensitive situations. As is, the only thought I have is to institute a RL crafting cooldown based on the item trying to be made. A few days for a throwing knife or an axe, a week for a gun. But then we start getting into the big ones; a month for a chainmail shirt (I'm being nice with that), three for a suit of plate armor. Six to restore a car. You could have more than one project in but you could only work on one at a time. If it takes you 90 days of labor and you stop 20 in to do something that takes 10, you still have 70 days left on the first one. This problem though is that, in a MU, anything longer than a week feels too long.

So instead of saying that time matters without expanding, how about some ideas as to how to enforce Time in crafting?

I would like to hear your ideas too, Theno. Other than keep an excel spread sheet.

Several parts of my ideas have been mentioned in several of Purple's posts already, after I discussed the ideas and wording with staff and with one or two players I don't otherwise know. I wasn't comfortable with all of the conclusions, but I did like the premises.

The goal I had was to simplify not via fewer rolls, but to simplify via clarity. The systems used on a Mu* should be understandable not only by people who are experts at manipulating statistical systems, but more importantly by people who are not.

So how would you track time used?