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Sammi



Posts : 23
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Morality Alternative Ideas   Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:56 am

Thomas wrote:
Narrowing back in on the idea of RP 'justification' for Clarity regains instead of XP, there are a number of practical problems:
I may have been insufficiently clear in what I was suggesting. While I do think that Morality regains should happen with the plot reward system, I don't believe it's necessary to mandate that all regains happen that way. People who want to spend XP and put in the minimal work required for justification under the current system could easily do that, and there's a sufficient number of people with misgivings about making it entirely RP-based, doing both could certainly work as well.

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1. The lack of IC therapists.
I've mentioned PrPs before in this thread, which you appear to be ignoring. There is at least one person who can cover any given time zone, because we have a lot of people on the game and any of them could run an NPC therapist. You're also totally excluding the possibility of self-guided therapy techniques.

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You're also pretty much locking those characters into therapy RP, which is only so fun.
A scene or three in a week or two is hardly "locking" anyone into anything, and scenes could be spread out over longer periods. Additionally, "therapy RP" need not only involve lying on a couch and talking about your feelings. There are lots of more interesting ways that one PC might help another or that other PC might try on her own to get back in touch with her Morality/Clarity/Harmony. Tons of ways. Many, many. And I for one would love it to have people come to me and ask me to come up with interesting ways for their characters to get back in touch with their Morality analogs.

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2. Inequality in log evaluation. Who is going to evaluate the therapy logs, and how are you going to decide what's 'good enough'?
Same situation with any other plot reward. Members of staff already decide if a plot is good enough to acquire a magic item or gain an NPC as a Retainer.

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3. ... Unless you make the requirements so light that they might as well not exist, you're saying that you want these people to have to choose between their character becoming unplayable, or getting stuck in 'therapy' RP every single time they log in, if they want their Clarity back in a reasonable amount of time.
You're taking two points very far apart and saying they're right next to each other. The choice is not between nothing and draconian requirements. There's a lot of grey area between requiring people to do therapy RP every single time they log in and having nonexistent requirements, unless you're talking about people who log in once every three weeks. As mentioned above, therapy sessions or PrPs can be arranged in numerous ways to fit the schedules of the participants. You could have one scene or three scenes over the course of a month, whatever the story requires.

What's a reasonable amount of time, to you? If the current system allows Morality regains in a reasonable amount of time, then RPing it out certainly will. The plot reward has no minimum interval before you can regain your Morality, while the XP system does. Assuming a character who keeps a balance of 0 XP at any given time, it currently takes (dots x 3)/2 weeks to build up the XP to regain a dot of Morality. For a changeling who lost Clarity 7 and has the benefit of a therapist (which non-changelings don't get), that's six weeks, far longer than the maximum one-month interval you'd have with the plot reward system (that's if you got your plot reward for the month in the plot in which you lost Clarity, and it happened on the first of the month). For a werewolf who lost Harmony 7, it'd be 11.5 weeks. The only time the minimum interval for the current system gets lower than the maximum interval for the plot reward system is for changelings who receive therapy for Clarity 4 (which takes three weeks) and for other people who regain Morality 2. And the therapy sessions or plot might be over in a week if the participants are motivated and have the time. Much more reasonable numbers, don't you think?

Now, I know you're going to say that my example breaks down when taking into account a character who saves XP and has however much XP available when that level of Morality gets lost. Well, my example doesn't break down. You still spent those weeks acquiring that XP, so that time is still lost; the immediate gratification you get for having enough saved is an illusion that conceals the fact that you're still having spent several months of waiting when you could spend one week (and could need to spend no more than one month).

Assuming that a given character has a balance of 0 XP is a more fair assessment, as well, because who among us doesn't have plans on how to spend the XP that's coming in? It's safe to assume that any given person who loses Morality is going to want to wait until the current spend that's being saved up for is handled before deviating into Morality. So, for balance between the people who don't know what to do with their XP and those of us who are saving up for things, it's best to assume a baseline of no surplus and no debt.

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4. Inequality to access.
Again, this is fixed by PrPs and you should stop ignoring their existence.

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A Lost who is perfectly capable of quietly working on his or her own issues, but who is not inclined to bare their souls to someone who might stab them in the back in the next moment, would be permanently restricted from raising their Clarity.
Do you want me to run a solo PrP for you to work on Thomas' Clarity and show you how it could be done? Because I will.

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Moreover, particularly for Clarity, it doesn't even make sense, since characters CAN raise Clarity by making life changes that reestablish the boundary between the real and the unreal, and seek out consistency, routine, and predictability...which, while great from a thematic level, would be a bore to RP out.
If you find RP about self-discovery boring, I can't help you except to say that the option to wait longer and spend XP could easily still be available.

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(Also consider that high Clarity has significant, in game bonuses, due to its use in Hedge navigation, kenning, and perception. This is precisely because it is difficult to maintain and raise.)
Agreed. That's why we're not talking about changing how difficult it is to maintain and raise (and is one of the reasons why I don't really care to reduce the XP cost, since Clarity 8 and Harmony 8 are worth it). We're talking about changing (not how difficult it is but) what is required to regain it, once maintenance has failed.
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Thenomain



Posts : 48
Join date : 2010-07-19

PostSubject: Re: Morality Alternative Ideas   Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:01 am

Lawless wrote:
That's what I assumed. So you already need to justify it. This is just replacing the Xp requirement of it with a log requirement of some sort. Details to be worked out, of course. Which would make this a good time to think up some reasonable guidelines.

A little more accurately, it would be replacing the XP requirement with more stringent IC requirements.

As a second clarification, you may notice that Darkwater is fairly lax on the IC requirements, or even OOC requirements. 'news punishment' was the first news file we wrote for the game and it hasn't changed, but it should give you an idea about how we approach details. (What's an issue? Deal with how?)

Changing one element in this manner suggests that we make a shift in our game philosophy. Not doing so would make for an inconsistency in game culture that I, at least, am not keen on inviting, and don't like it where I already see it.
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Sammi



Posts : 23
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Morality Alternative Ideas   Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:34 am

Thenomain wrote:
Changing one element in this manner suggests that we make a shift in our game philosophy. Not doing so would make for an inconsistency in game culture that I, at least, am not keen on inviting, and don't like it where I already see it.
I don't think the philosophy would shift at all. It's already there, with the current plot reward system, and my suggestion is nothing more than pointing out how we can use a system that already exists to solve all of the problems we see with the current system rather than coming up with something new. It's been there since the beginning, since rules were implemented where rewards (goblin fruits and trifles, specifically) may come without XP cost but with more stringent IC requirements. It was reinforced with the decision to stick with the book on not charging XP for tokens obtained after chargen. That's all old news, written into the theme of Changeling itself, and modifying the Morality system in the manner I have suggested would do nothing more than determine that lost dots are a transitory reward (like goblin fruits, trifles, tokens, talens and fetishes) and thus put Morality regains under that purview.
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Thomas



Posts : 32
Join date : 2011-01-28

PostSubject: Re: Morality Alternative Ideas   Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:40 am

Sammi wrote:

I may have been insufficiently clear in what I was suggesting. While I do think that Morality regains should happen with the plot reward system, I don't believe it's necessary to mandate that all regains happen that way. People who want to spend XP and put in the minimal work required for justification under the current system could easily do that, and there's a sufficient number of people with misgivings about making it entirely RP-based, doing both could certainly work as well.

Honestly, as long as there's an XP option, and the 'alternative' option isn't hideously unbalanced (i.e. includes some sort of time requirement that brings it in line with how long it takes to save up a comparable amount of XP, one which cannot be waived), then I'm fine with whatever.



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I've mentioned PrPs before in this thread, which you appear to be ignoring. There is at least one person who can cover any given time zone, because we have a lot of people on the game and any of them could run an NPC therapist. You're also totally excluding the possibility of self-guided therapy techniques.

Not ignoring, but largely disregarding, yes. There aren't enough people willing to run PrPs for the plots people want run /now/; adding a dozen new requests for 'therapy' RP, particularly RP that doesn't involve other people's characters, is not likely to improve the situation. And getting a PrP run largely depends on knowing someone who is a) willing to run, b) capable of running a plot well, and c) has a compatible schedule. Sure, I can get one run, even on short notice. But I don't assume that my ability to do so applies for every other player on the game, particularly new people who haven't yet had the opportunity to find out who the plot-runners are and build relationships with them.

Also, just in general, having to rely on player generosity for a core game mechanic? Not a good idea. Think about how well that's worked on games that required plots to be run to earn skills, or Contracts, or whathaveyou.

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A scene or three in a week or two is hardly "locking" anyone into anything, and scenes could be spread out over longer periods. Additionally, "therapy RP" need not only involve lying on a couch and talking about your feelings. There are lots of more interesting ways that one PC might help another or that other PC might try on her own to get back in touch with her Morality/Clarity/Harmony. Tons of ways. Many, many. And I for one would love it to have people come to me and ask me to come up with interesting ways for their characters to get back in touch with their Morality analogs.

A 'scene or three' in a week is usually my /entire/ roster of scenes for that week. Some weeks I don't get that many. And I know that I get more RP than quite a few people.

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Same situation with any other plot reward. Members of staff already decide if a plot is good enough to acquire a magic item or gain an NPC as a Retainer.

Except that magic items and retainers are optional additions to a character that no one /needs/ to buy. Clarity is one of the core game mechanics, and the significant loss of it without any way to regain it can render a character unplayable in pretty short order.


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Do you want me to run a solo PrP for you to work on Thomas' Clarity and show you how it could be done? Because I will.

Dear God, no. I'm a counselor in RL. I'm in a doctoral program that is all about counseling. My every day is filled with therapy, research about therapy, and meta-analysis of therapy. I have absolutely no desire to play out therapy, particularly with someone who I barely know and who knows nothing about my character or, presumably, about therapeutic interventions. While the prospect DOES fit some definitions of 'personal horror', it's probably not the ones that WW had in mind.

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If you find RP about self-discovery boring, I can't help you except to say that the option to wait longer and spend XP could easily still be available.

I 'RP about self-discovery' in every single scene my character is in. Most of it is naval-gazing which is not entertaining to anyone other than myself, and I don't require aid to do so, I assure you. Anyway, as long as the XP cost is still an option, I don't otherwise really care what y'all do.
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Thenomain



Posts : 48
Join date : 2010-07-19

PostSubject: Re: Morality Alternative Ideas   Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:50 am

Sammi wrote:
I don't think the philosophy would shift at all.

Game philosophy is strongly tied to staff's approach, so please don't take this the wrong way, but yes it will. I will even claim this as fact: What is being suggested will require a shift in game culture at the staff level, which will change it at the player level.

The rest of your response was asked and answered, making it a distraction to the attempted discussion. If there's further confusion, page me on the game and I'll try to clarify.
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Sammi



Posts : 23
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Morality Alternative Ideas   Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:50 am

Thomas wrote:
Honestly, as long as there's an XP option, and the 'alternative' option isn't hideously unbalanced (i.e. includes some sort of time requirement that brings it in line with how long it takes to save up a comparable amount of XP, one which cannot be waived), then I'm fine with whatever.
You said earlier that you wanted Morality able to be regained in a reasonable amount of time. Have you changed your stance on that position?

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There aren't enough people willing to run PrPs for the plots people want run /now/; adding a dozen new requests for 'therapy' RP, particularly RP that doesn't involve other people's characters, is not likely to improve the situation.
While I think having dedicated PrP-runners is a very good thing, having the Muse bucket means that most plots people want run go through there, and those of us who can and do run plots but don't want to make the commitment (*handraise*) never hear about them.

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And getting a PrP run largely depends on knowing someone who is a) willing to run, b) capable of running a plot well, and c) has a compatible schedule.
Or working up a compelling summary and asking if anyone wants to take you up on it. Or sometimes just asking on-channel, depending on who's bored at the moment.

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Think about how well that's worked on games that required plots to be run to earn skills, or Contracts, or whathaveyou.
Some of the most fun I've had in MUSHing has been running and playing in such scenes.

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A 'scene or three' in a week is usually my /entire/ roster of scenes for that week. Some weeks I don't get that many. And I know that I get more RP than quite a few people.
Then take longer periods. Have one scene each week for three weeks. Have one scene each month for three months. The strength of my suggestion is that it's very flexible.

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Except that magic items and retainers are optional additions to a character that no one /needs/ to buy. Clarity is one of the core game mechanics, and the significant loss of it without any way to regain it can render a character unplayable in pretty short order.
I'd argue that the current system is far more of a barrier to regaining Morality than mandatory scenes would be. Even a newbie who doesn't know any PrP-runners and is horribly introverted can get into the game, meet people and find someone to run something in the months it takes to get the XP to regain Morality.

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Dear God, no. I'm a counselor in RL. I'm in a doctoral program that is all about counseling. My every day is filled with therapy, research about therapy, and meta-analysis of therapy. I have absolutely no desire to play out therapy, particularly with someone who I barely know and who knows nothing about my character or, presumably, about therapeutic interventions.
Putting aside the fact that some of the best PrPs I've run and had run for me have been spur-of-the-moment deals where the runner barely knew the PC(s) involved, I believe that you and I have very different ideas of what "therapy RP" entails. Say, for example, Thomas takes a hit in Clarity and decides that he's relying too much on his magic, so he swears off Contracts until his Clarity heals. You can then have a perfectly psychiatrist-less plot about how Thomas deals with things without using his Contracts, particularly when those things involve some task he's gotten unused to doing because his magic afforded him a shortcut. All I would need to know of Thomas to run that plot is a basic synopsis of the character and input from you on something you think he's gotten unused to doing for himself. Thomas would struggle to do things like normal people do them, and would get rewarded with healed Clarity. That's perfectly valid therapy, and not at all boring. Not very personal, either, which is a detriment if you want to do close-to-the-heart stuff, but it's possible to do theraputic RP that doesn't get inside a character's head and dig around.
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Crow



Posts : 13
Join date : 2011-04-07

PostSubject: Re: Morality Alternative Ideas   Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:23 pm

Sammi wrote:
While I think having dedicated PrP-runners is a very good thing, having the Muse bucket means that most plots people want run go through there, and those of us who can and do run plots but don't want to make the commitment (*handraise*) never hear about them.

Speaking as a current muse, let me assure you that just because we have access to a jobs bucket does /not/, in any way, mean that we know what's going on with a character outside of what they tell us in there. We can't even +sheet a character to see what sorts of options they have in a plot the way a staff member can. This makes it incredibly hard to run scenes of that caliber, especially in a therapy situation where you have to take into account background, life skills, virtue, vice, current level of morality, character type/template, etc. This would be a huge endeavor for anyone, even muses/PrP-runners, because ultimately, it's not even up to us. It's up to staff.



Sammi wrote:
Some of the most fun I've had in MUSHing has been running and playing in such scenes.

Some of us find those kinds of scenes rather dull when it comes to raising a morality stat. But outside of that, consider this for a moment. Werewolves have a Harmony stat. This stat does not mean that you're good at being human. This stat is about being, in all honesty, a monster. Something half-human, half-animal, and the balance that you maintain between them. Let me assure you, going to a therapist and talking about how you're struggling with keeping up on your shapeshifting (which you have to do at least once every three days, or you're a bad, naughty werewolf) is /itself/ a sin, because you totally just gave away the existence of werewolves, which is even worse than what you went in to talk about. So these won't work for an entire sphere. Not really a good option.

Sammi wrote:
Then take longer periods. Have one scene each week for three weeks. Have one scene each month for three months. The strength of my suggestion is that it's very flexible.

People should not have to sacrifice what little RP they get in order to work this into their schedule. It's hard enough in the werewolf sphere to find time to RP/Run Plots/look at jobs, etc (ok, so that last stuff is just on my end) without having to take extra time to track down somebody to do something wholly ineffective for us. Still not fun, so that's a double strike.

Thomas wrote:
Except that magic items and retainers are optional additions to a character that no one /needs/ to buy. Clarity is one of the core game mechanics, and the significant loss of it without any way to regain it can render a character unplayable in pretty short order.

Sammi wrote:
I'd argue that the current system is far more of a barrier to regaining Morality than mandatory scenes would be. Even a newbie who doesn't know any PrP-runners and is horribly introverted can get into the game, meet people and find someone to run something in the months it takes to get the XP to regain Morality.

That is an excellent point, Thomas.

Sammi? I'd argue the opposite. Some xp dropped with a personal justification on how you're raising it that doesn't involve logs and logs of boring stuff is far, far simpler than extensive therapy sessions that not everyone thinks are fun/necessary. Sorry. Sad

Thomas wrote:
Dear God, no. I'm a counselor in RL. I'm in a doctoral program that is all about counseling. My every day is filled with therapy, research about therapy, and meta-analysis of therapy. I have absolutely no desire to play out therapy, particularly with someone who I barely know and who knows nothing about my character or, presumably, about therapeutic interventions.

A. Men.

Sammi wrote:
Putting aside the fact that some of the best PrPs I've run and had run for me have been spur-of-the-moment deals where the runner barely knew the PC(s) involved, I believe that you and I have very different ideas of what "therapy RP" entails. Say, for example, Thomas takes a hit in Clarity and decides that he's relying too much on his magic, so he swears off Contracts until his Clarity heals. You can then have a perfectly psychiatrist-less plot about how Thomas deals with things without using his Contracts, particularly when those things involve some task he's gotten unused to doing because his magic afforded him a shortcut. All I would need to know of Thomas to run that plot is a basic synopsis of the character and input from you on something you think he's gotten unused to doing for himself. Thomas would struggle to do things like normal people do them, and would get rewarded with healed Clarity. That's perfectly valid therapy, and not at all boring. Not very personal, either, which is a detriment if you want to do close-to-the-heart stuff, but it's possible to do theraputic RP that doesn't get inside a character's head and dig around.

Counterexample. Crow accidentally shapeshifts in front of a human. Oh, god. Harmony sin. Crow loses Harmony for this. Why doesn't he feel bad? Strange. But, uh oh. This human had high willpower. Lunacy doesn't affect them. Snap. He doesn't feel bad about changing in front of a human (thus the loss to Harmony), but he realizes that he's violated the oath of the moon, and that something has to be done. Believe me, nobody wants to run this scene.

Why? Because there's a simple solution. You kill that person. Easy-peasy. Rip 'em to shreds. Trap 'em in the spirit world. Send an Azlu in their general direction, then snuff the azlu. Countless ways of doing this, but they all end with the eternal silence of the human who saw too much, especially if they're talking.

Now, if that character /happens/ to be a PC? Nobody wants to run that scene. Really.

Xp and a short blurb about meditation on the importance of the oath of the moon? Better solution. More fun all around.

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Cobalt



Posts : 88
Join date : 2010-05-30

PostSubject: Re: Morality Alternative Ideas   Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:25 am

Crow wrote:
We can't even +sheet a character to see what sorts of options they have in a plot the way a staff member can.

Slightly off topic: People can always +sheet/show Crow. So you can see what stats they have.
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Sammi



Posts : 23
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Morality Alternative Ideas   Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:00 am

Crow wrote:
Speaking as a current muse, let me assure you that just because we have access to a jobs bucket does /not/, in any way, mean that we know what's going on with a character outside of what they tell us in there.
Entirely missing my point. The Muse bucket lets you hear about plots people want run that the rest of us never know about. Every PrP-runner is in the same boat when it comes to sheets.

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This makes it incredibly hard to run scenes of that caliber, especially in a therapy situation where you have to take into account background, life skills, virtue, vice, current level of morality, character type/template, etc.
Bullshit. Most of my plots take into account background, life skills, Virtue, Vice and Morality, and you can't run a plot without knowing the PC's template. Before I run a plot, I do research on the characters involved. If I need to know more, I ask. Here on Darkwater, we have a lovely little +sheet/show command, and +concept/allow and +concept/open that make it easy for people to share their sheets and backgrounds with one another.

Sammi wrote:
Werewolves have a Harmony stat. This stat does not mean that you're good at being human. This stat is about being, in all honesty, a monster. Something half-human, half-animal, and the balance that you maintain between them. Let me assure you, going to a therapist and talking about how you're struggling with keeping up on your shapeshifting (which you have to do at least once every three days, or you're a bad, naughty werewolf) is /itself/ a sin, because you totally just gave away the existence of werewolves, which is even worse than what you went in to talk about.
You clearly haven't been reading what I've been saying. Therapy RP != sitting on a couch talking to a psychiatrist. Therapy RP for a wolf who needs to shapeshift more would much more likely be a plot that puts the PC more in touch with his wolf or human side, whichever he's not using as much as he should.

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People should not have to sacrifice what little RP they get in order to work this into their schedule.
Again, not reading what I'm saying. People who want to sacrifice other avenues of RP in order to regain Morality quickly could do so, and have it done in a week. People who want to take it more slowly and fit the therapy RP in between their other things could take a month or two (which is the current timeframe for regaining Morality for most people).

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Counterexample. Crow accidentally shapeshifts in front of a human. Oh, god. Harmony sin. Crow loses Harmony for this. Why doesn't he feel bad? Strange. But, uh oh. This human had high willpower. Lunacy doesn't affect them. Snap. He doesn't feel bad about changing in front of a human (thus the loss to Harmony), but he realizes that he's violated the oath of the moon, and that something has to be done. Believe me, nobody wants to run this scene.

Why? Because there's a simple solution. You kill that person. Easy-peasy. Rip 'em to shreds. Trap 'em in the spirit world. Send an Azlu in their general direction, then snuff the azlu. Countless ways of doing this, but they all end with the eternal silence of the human who saw too much, especially if they're talking.
I don't believe this has anything to do with the discussion. Promptly killing people to avert an Oath breech is a time-honored way of keeping the Uratha's secrecy and Harmony intact. It's also one reason why I think that therapy should be allowed to regain Morality without spending XP, since werewolves who accidentally let the Herd know can get out of the sin through murder.

The scene has been run many times. I don't know about you, but I enjoy it. It's the consequence in, "I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you," and I think it's fantastic.

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Now, if that character /happens/ to be a PC? Nobody wants to run that scene. Really.
Why not?

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Xp and a short blurb about meditation on the importance of the oath of the moon? Better solution. More fun all around.
More fun than what? Murder isn't the only option on the table. If you choose not to kill the human (whether for IC reasons because she's your One True Love or for OOC reasons because she's a PC), you risk losing Harmony. If you lose Harmony, you can regain it, through ways that don't involve killing the human (maybe you lecture her on how it's a secret and if she tells anybody, you'll fucking kill her and then throw in a little tiny bit of Lunacy to sear that admonition into her brain).
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Crow



Posts : 13
Join date : 2011-04-07

PostSubject: Re: Morality Alternative Ideas   Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:55 am

Nobody wants to run a PKill scene because it sucks to be in a PKill scene. It's not fun, especially not for the one being killed, especially if they didn't do anything to 'deserve' it in their own eyes other than see too much.

Of course there are alternatives to murder, and you made a great example of justifications for what they feel when they make their roll and /don't/ lose their Harmony for it. But remember, when you lose Harmony, you /don't/ feel bad. You end up justifying it somehow. (Well, she's ok. That rule doesn't count for her. As a matter of fact, it's just kind of stupid). But those who lose Harmony are not going to feel regret for what they did. Killing those who saw too much is pretty much the only way out of something like that if you go for an RP standpoint, whether you lose Harmony or not, otherwise it just defeats the purpose of Harmony at all, because you can do whatever you want and RP a couple of logs about being a better wolf, and bring it right back up. It's a get out of jail free card with a bloody price on it, or some boring, unproductive logs that a lot of people aren't going to be interested in, and letting them do that versus still spending xp on it so that they don't have to do it? Just keep the xp where it is. There has to be some cost for it, and it might as well be the same for everyone.

I have been listening to what you're saying. I got your points just fine. I think you may have missed mine.
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Sammi



Posts : 23
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Morality Alternative Ideas   Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:42 am

Crow wrote:
Nobody wants to run a PKill scene because it sucks to be in a PKill scene. It's not fun, especially not for the one being killed, especially if they didn't do anything to 'deserve' it in their own eyes other than see too much.
Your opinion. There are a lot of people who like death scenes.

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But remember, when you lose Harmony, you /don't/ feel bad.
You can not feel bad about a sin and still intellectually recognize that it's a bad thing. If you don't recognize it as a bad thing, then why are you trying to regain Harmony in the first place? If you don't recognize it as a bad thing, you can't spend XP to regain Harmony, either.

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You end up justifying it somehow. (Well, she's ok. That rule doesn't count for her. As a matter of fact, it's just kind of stupid).
And these wolves won't so easily regain Harmony, whichever system we use.

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Killing those who saw too much is pretty much the only way out of something like that if you go for an RP standpoint, whether you lose Harmony or not, otherwise it just defeats the purpose of Harmony at all, because you can do whatever you want and RP a couple of logs about being a better wolf, and bring it right back up.
No system can stop people from acting stupid, and my suggested system explicitly uses the plot rewards system: you can only get one per month, and if you do, you can't use that month to get anything else per that system. If you drop two dots of Harmony and have already gotten a plot reward this month, that's two months.

Repeated Harmony sins are likely to be punished IC by the Oath-minded Rahu and Elodoth, and if you do that sort of thing all the time, you'll build up a bad reputation.

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It's a get out of jail free card with a bloody price on it, or some boring, unproductive logs that a lot of people aren't going to be interested in, and letting them do that versus still spending xp on it so that they don't have to do it? Just keep the xp where it is. There has to be some cost for it, and it might as well be the same for everyone.
The options would be the same for everyone (unlike now, where changelings get half-price regains if they get therapy RP).

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I have been listening to what you're saying. I got your points just fine. I think you may have missed mine.
You persist in framing therapy RP as necessarily boring when I've proven that it need not be, and you also ignore the fact that waiting for several weeks/months is far more boring than even the couch-and-shrink stereotype. Either you've been completely ignoring what I'm saying or you honestly think that character development is "boring" and "unproductive".

You also appear to believe that I'm advocating a system where people don't have to do any work to regain Morality when in fact I've explicitly said otherwise multiple times (and pointed out how the current system doesn't require any work beyond a three-sentence justification, but permanently gimps your character compared to everyone else).
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Crow



Posts : 13
Join date : 2011-04-07

PostSubject: Re: Morality Alternative Ideas   Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:08 pm

Whereas the current system /can/ incorporate therapy RP, or an infinite number of other things, assessing the IC work done as an xp cost, yours basically narrows it down to this being the only way to do it, or you still have to pay a hefty cost.

I don't like it. I think it's too narrow. I think that, as you stated above regarding my post, this is just an opinion, and probably not everyone shares it. I, for one, don't know a single player that likes losing their characters, especially in a competitive atmosphere like a MUSH.

I've not been ignoring what you've said. I've been responding to everything that you said. I think that it's not a good idea to implement a lopsided system, which is what I perceive that to be. If it's going to be a workable system, it has to be workable for everyone, and the system that I see presented by you isn't, in my opinion, workable as it stands.

I still stand by my original suggestion. Don't touch it. Leave it alone. Enough people on here have expressed enough hesitation to call the necessity of this into question.

If you /must/ change it somehow, just reduce the cost of the stat.
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Lawless



Posts : 22
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Morality Alternative Ideas   Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:46 pm

Crow wrote:
Xp and a short blurb about meditation on the importance of the oath of the moon? Better solution. More fun all around.

More fun: No XP and a short part of a larger scene with someone that has your character meditating, then discussing the matter with the other player, thus promoting both deeper RP, character development and continuity. I don’t know why everyone thinks that morality/clarity/harmony improving RP has to be boring therapy sessions. It’s just a matter of putting what you would put in that blurb into an actual scene. It’s another reason to RP, that’s all.

Likewise, I don’t see the addition of using RP as a means to regain said stats as exclusive. Why remove the option to spend XP at all? Have both. Those who want to save XP can RP it out in an acceptable way and those who don’t want to or simply can’t will have the same option. How much one might want to lower the cost in XP depends on how important one wants to make said stats.

On the topic of losing characters, trust me. Some people are perfectly fine with a good death scene. Me? I’d prefer not to, but I go the way IC leads. Of course, some warning well before the danger zone is nice, if you’re the sort that doesn’t like player death. I tend to try and avoid it when possible ICly.
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