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 Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines

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Bea



Posts : 15
Join date : 2011-01-26

PostSubject: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:17 am

Quote :
I agree. People may have complained, but not to me (admittedly, people may have complained before I was around, etc).

I've been around since the game opened, and did hear a few folks complain, culminating with the Summer crowning, that there was too many Gentry.
To be frank, I think that part of it being percieved as a big issue is the habit of staff to listen to the loudest players, rather than the majority who /don't/ have a problem and thus don't have anything to be loud about.
However, there did seem to be, at the start of the game, a lot of direct Gentry influence. As I have always understood it, Gentry are kind of like vamps- mostly they get a lackey to do their dirty work, particularly in the 'real world'. We were having more direct Gentry-snatchings than Loyalists trying to sneak in, or Privateers looking to the fish-barrel of PA for an easy payday. These 'lesser' antagonists are also possible to win against, this is not really the case with Gentry, particularly ones that are so interwoven into the setting.
I think that the perception that there was an excess of Gentry was partly due to the Big Bird plot. A gentry who came frequently to collect folks.
Also having the Duke make even /mundane/ waters unsafe for any travel adds to the perception of heavy-handed use of Gentry. This is particularly true when there wasn't anything being done to keep that as a reality for the characters, rather than just 'staff says no'. Granted, the Duke escape seems to have changed that to a certain degree.
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Truth and Lies



Posts : 11
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:04 am

@Bea: Has anyone actually tried to go out on the water and see just how staff will react? Olivia is one of the older PCs on grid, and she has spent the entire time living on a boat. Granted, it's permanently docked, but still. She's been on the water, in a boat, and she is a former Duke escapee to boot. It might be that staff did their job too well, and instead of us going 'Oh, the water is dangerous, like the Hedge' we all think 'oh my god! Water is bad! If we go out on it we're going to die!'. Especially since we do have the Lighthouse to defend us. I also think we're all so afraid of danger that we've forgotten this is a game of horror and suspense and Things That Go Bump In The Night.

I would also like to humbly ask.. Has anyone thought to investigate if the Atrium has built in wards? And if so, how strong they are? Has there ever been an example of Gentry attacking the Atrium? And as far as being able to grow the Atrium.. Has anyone asked staff if it is possible to put XP towards the Atrium, or if it is possible to 'discover' the amenities and workshops we would need through plot? I know Cobalt, and she is all about accommodating to make people happy.. Almost to a fault, which is partly why things are at the point they are. I can't see her hiring staff that aren't just as willing to work with people.

Personally? I would absolutely love if the First Mate (a poor, much neglected sot) were to suddenly sweep down and destroy the Redoubt Wink The Duke and the Green Man have gotten most of the attention. It'd be nice to see the other local Gentry menace us LOL
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Bea



Posts : 15
Join date : 2011-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:23 am

Truth and Lies wrote:
@Bea: Has anyone actually tried to go out on the water and see just how staff will react? Olivia is one of the older PCs on grid, and she has spent the entire time living on a boat. Granted, it's permanently docked, but still. She's been on the water, in a boat, and she is a former Duke escapee to boot.
This is my point exactly, T&L. Olivia (and at one point others) had boats on the water, and nothing, as far as I know, has happened to them for it... One or two plots have had water elements, but for the most part, I haven't seen it played up.
I think most people come up with IC justification becasue that is what is put inthe setting: Water is bad, you are afraid of it. But there is not much push to give people a /real/ IC reason, based on things they have experienced.




Quote :
Personally? I would absolutely love if the First Mate (a poor, much neglected sot) were to suddenly sweep down and destroy the Redoubt The Duke and the Green Man have gotten most of the attention. It'd be nice to see the other local Gentry menace us LOL
I agree- the Duke, and to a certain extend the Guardian (who is not available for PCs to take as Keepers, so far as I know) have been the main Gentry focus. Green Man got a walk-on, but the First Mate hasn't even gotten a nod.
Having a focus on /all/ the staff-created, thematically significant Gentry would be awesome. Particularly giving the folks from those other two Keepers a reason, like was given to the Duke Lost with the Big Escape, to join forces and play out that common bond of Durance, for good or ill.
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Rangi



Posts : 6
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:58 am

Bea wrote:
Truth and Lies wrote:
@Bea: Has anyone actually tried to go out on the water and see just how staff will react?
I think most people come up with IC justification becasue that is what is put inthe setting: Water is bad, you are afraid of it. But there is not much push to give people a /real/ IC reason, based on things they have experienced.

I was OOCly warned at chargen by staff that most of Rangi's water stats were 'wasted stats' because going into the water was impossible due to the danger levels involved - he would just be killed. I was told 'you will not get RP out of these'.

I don't have an IC justification (admittedly, I know, you said 'most' not all Smile aside from Rangi being ICly warned, but given that I've been OOCly AND ICly warned, and then saw PCs doing boat and water stuff, I admit I felt pretty upset. Now maybe rules were different at chargen. Maybe things have changed due to various actions by the PCs, maybe staff had something in mind that's different now?

But to me, what am I supposed to draw from this other than 'You can't, but others can!'
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Truth and Lies



Posts : 11
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PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:35 am

I think that staff had this vision in mind, but so many people have chickened out of going out on the water that they've either relaxed the restriction or just haven't had a chance to put it in effect. Frankly, I wouldn't mind getting swatted by that restriction if it would make for good RP. But I am almost sociopathically unattached to my PCs. If they die, I will cry, but no more than I do when any story I enjoy is over.
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Cobalt



Posts : 88
Join date : 2010-05-30

PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:01 am

The water isn't supposed to be dangerous because the Duke will appear and snatch you away, but because he controls the waters. Via loyalists and privateers.


@Bea: I would love to do more with TGM, more with The First Mate, etc. I just... don't have enough hours in the day. :/ I will look to trying to do more with TGM shortly in the future, and when that is over with, with TFM. And too much influence of Gentry is... well, mostly loyalists are difficult to handle. If I don't make a charobject and run it around on the grid, players know the bit is an NPC-- and tend to be distrustful. Doing a long term deep loyalist is problematic, and it's a problem... I've never had the time to fix.
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Sabine



Posts : 5
Join date : 2011-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:20 am

Quote :
too many people have chickened out of going out on the water

This is...a little different from what Rangi has described. We have been told OOCly we can't, by staff. That water-based stats are a waste. That's not chickening out, that's going with what apparently was a rule.

If staff is willing to run that sort of thing now, great. If there are consequences, terrific! But being told you can't, OOCly, is very, very different from being scared to do so ICly. Just sayin'.
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Cobalt



Posts : 88
Join date : 2010-05-30

PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:45 am

If people +request for these scenes, I am willing to run them. I am willing to assign loyalist / privateer stats to muses to run them mucking with folks. I just need help. :/
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Rangi



Posts : 6
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PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:56 am

Cobalt wrote:
If I don't make a charobject and run it around on the grid, players know the bit is an NPC-- and tend to be distrustful.

I don't know about others, but you know what I think when I see an NPC running around on grid?

Plot! Someone's plotting. I want in on that! Very Happy

And I'll happily play my trusting PC (Rangi) as trusting folks he shouldn't, and my distrustful PC (London) as distrusting folks they shouldn't. But honestly, if I see a staffer brmm brmming a dubious PC around on grid my initial reaction is: AWESOME.
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Truth and Lies



Posts : 11
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:59 am

Rangi wrote:
Cobalt wrote:
If I don't make a charobject and run it around on the grid, players know the bit is an NPC-- and tend to be distrustful.

I don't know about others, but you know what I think when I see an NPC running around on grid?

Plot! Someone's plotting. I want in on that! Very Happy

And I'll happily play my trusting PC (Rangi) as trusting folks he shouldn't, and my distrustful PC (London) as distrusting folks they shouldn't. But honestly, if I see a staffer brmm brmming a dubious PC around on grid my initial reaction is: AWESOME.


There is also a Muse bit that muses might want to use more often.. If only so people see that there's plottage going on
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Bea



Posts : 15
Join date : 2011-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:49 pm

From a Muse: I am almost always happy to run things, and have offered to run water plots, but got the OOC reply from those offered /to/ that they'e been told it's a no-no OOC. If that OOC stance is changing, Cobalt, perhaps a public announcement on the game? As for help, perhaps us Muses and Plot staff could have a sit down and discuss how we can make the Musing work better for players and more helpful to staff.
Also, on the Muse bit- I know I only use it if I can't use one of my PCs for some reason because there is only one Muse bit, and when the job was first made, there were often times when there would be more than one Mused scene going on. Quite frankly, you know plottage is going on by getting involved when folks ask for assistance, you know plottage is going on when players post explanations of things on the boards, you know there is plottage going on when you go out and /ask/. Hell, my character would tell just about anyone about 3-5 different things they could get into, off the top of my head, if people just asked, and actually followed up with others when they do get an answer.
I mostly run Muse scenes either off the cuff (announcing on channel I'm going to run a thing), or that are pre-arranged with certain people, and thus not publicly joinable. Those plot-seeds I /have/ thrown out there on the BB for folks to grab have been almost entirely been ignored. If y'all want Muses to do something, you have to do your part too, and actually show an interest. Smile There is a +muse bucket to request a scene if you have a plot seed/idea, want something run or whatever, please toss a job into that bucket, or give a page to discuss it. Sometimes you have to be proactive from playerside.
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Cobalt



Posts : 88
Join date : 2010-05-30

PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:35 am

We're getting off topic, so I'm going to split this thread to another one.



@Bea: What exactly have you been told is an OOC no-no? Using loyalists and privateers in PrPs? Doing anything out on the water? And... who told you? I don't remember outright telling anyone they couldn't do these things. I rarely say no in a way that means "you can never do this". In fact things inside of 'news PrP' are things that aren't banned but require staff approval before running them. It was set up so people would know what sort of things they could run without going through staff first.

And it can be reviewed if people think it's too strict. I really don't mind. I want the grid active and fun and muses running things to their hearts content. (If only for the selfish reasons that maybe one day a Cobalt-PC'll get to be involved in a plot. Neutral)
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Truth and Lies



Posts : 11
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PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:25 am

I think Bea is saying she was told water-based plots were a no-no
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Bea



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PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:35 am

Ah, thns for the split, Cobalt. Smile
I have heard it from a few PCs that they have been told no going on the water, period, pretty much since the game started,with the exception being having a boat on the harbor, which setting notes specifically say is not something most characters would do. I know from the setting news file I pretty much just assumed it was background creepy mojo or something. But to be honest, when general understanding is 'staff says no', I'm not generally going to start pushing those boundaries as a Muse or player, particularly in something that is so big a part of the setting.
No one ever said anything about not using Loyalist/Privateers, and I have done so before, just not on the water.
I don't think the idea of water being dangerous/most don't go out on it is an issue as a general rule, but having it clear that it is OK from an OOC perspective is important. Looks like that /has/ been made clear now, though so...Anyone want to go a-pirating?
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Cobalt



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PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:18 am

Okay, understood.

The 'news boats' file was put in, not because players can't to these things. But to try and reinforce that they are dangerous. If that came across as "staff says no", then we'll address that and we'll see about changing the news file to be clearer.
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Thomas



Posts : 32
Join date : 2011-01-28

PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:27 am

Gentry

I'd like to see more Gentry stuff, but my objection to a lot of the Gentry plots towards the early part of the game is that they came off as exceptionally heavy-handed, and some of the biggest 'featured' Gentry were ones that either no PC had any real connection to (like the Big Bird), or felt pre-scripted to end in a certain way, with the Gentry basically used as an unstoppable plot device of doom. I would love to see more Gentry-plots like the type that Moira or Tyla were involved in (up to the kidnappings and/or death), with tormenting dreams, strange tokens being left, subtle harassment and dark machinations. Basically, more on the horror, play up the fear of specific Changelings that their Keeper is looking for /them/, right this second. Heck, those don't even have to be full plots...a lot of RP can be generated by a @mail that tells a player that their Lost looks out the door one day, and finds an object that triggers a memory of their durance. A rose dipped in blood, a fragment of their skin before it was replaced with steel or ceramic, whatever.

Basically, I'd like to see the Gentry as the overarching threats. Their presence often subtle and indirect, but terrible in its implications. With the occasional 'shopping with the villains' moment when a group of Lost might run across a Gentry just out and about, and be tempted into making dangerous bargains to get out with their sanity, or lives, intact.

Another good avenue for Gentry influence could be Gentry-cults; humans cultivated as agents to serve the Gentry's wishes, in exchange for pledge-boons and other concessions. What does the Freehold do with a Loyalist human as Chief of Police? One who is enchanted, and might be slowly going crazy from dream-poison, but in the meantime can do a /lot/ of damage. Murder them? What are the consequences of that, not just mortal, but in possibly alerting the Gentry to a nearby threat?
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Bea



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PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:16 am

+1Thomas. Well put. Smile
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Brand



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PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:46 am

Oh, that is very well put yes, Thomas.

I'm afraid that Gentry have become something most aren't afraid of; they've been met and conquered and won over several times. Even killed. I think there's been something lost... the fear, paranoia and dirty part of the whole thing has been somewhat exchanged for Epic-level combat/fighting. Is this a deliberate goal, or did it just happen that way?
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Kailin



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PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:10 pm

I'd like to see more loyalist and privateer storylines. I also think direct Gentry contact should be a rather rare event, but that's just my sense from what I've read in the books. I'd also think the setting would lead to similar behavior in Port Angeles, or any major Lost city. Once organized and militarized, a Gentry that ends up facing more than he can handle wouldn't last long and no Gentry would risk that after all the time they've spent building up their defenses and holdings. Just my sense of it.

Additionally (and this ties in more with other threads, but I thought it most appropriate to put here), with more privateers and loyalists going to work, it makes being part of the freehold more important. You need some kind of sense of protection. When some privateers can come into your mortal house and kidnap you away at any time of the day or night, that sense of security just isn't there. But with the freehold there are protections and guards and assurances that something like that won't happen. But I don't at all get the sense that it is even an issue in Port Angeles. And, yes, I understand that I came in right after that kind of stuff stopped happening, but a lot of people came in after me and that general sense is out there. Mostly, it is an issue of theme, which is completely up to staff discretion. If you want that to be part of the theme, that threat should be there. If not, there are other themes to be explored. I like that part of the theme, which is one of the reasons I chose to play a Summer.

As for the PC/NPC thing, loyalists and privateers don't at all have to be secretive. There can be motleys and known privateers that are known and feared for what they do and coming across them would not be a fun thing, though I very much see and enjoy the merits of a PC loyalist that infiltrates, especially since most of the Lost in Port Angeles are so open and friendly to everyone that comes through.
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Thomas



Posts : 32
Join date : 2011-01-28

PostSubject: Re: Loyalist/Privateer vs Gentry Storylines   Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:55 am

Other possibilities for plots involving Gentry:

Proactive foiling of Keeper plans: Now that we're all pretty danged powerful, it should be possible for things to start coming to characters' attention that allow them to foil the plots of their Keeper. Whether it's receiving dreams about a potential abductee, or when an out-of-town Lost comes to let them know that a very delicate meeting is going to take place between one Gentry and another, PCs are in a position to strike back at their Keepers in ways great and small. Again, these don't have to be Big Crazy Plots that are time intensive. Most could be done in three scenes involving 1-4 PCs. Whether it's finding out the hatreds of the 'guest' Gentry and ensuring that the meeting place contains them, making it look like the 'host' Gentry is deliberately insulting the other, or it's spiriting away a potential abductee from his/her loyalist watchers and running them out of town to a safe place with a wild car chase (or Hedge chase), they can be self-contained adventures.

There are also the possibilities for giving some of the characters who are amoral some things to do, because privateers and loyalists might actually be hiring. Perhaps hiring a thief to steal some hair without being noticed, or a Fairest to draw a target out to an ambush point. It would provide characters some opportunities to make difficult choices, particularly if the tasks seemed harmless or easily alibied.
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