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 Death and Banishment

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Sammi



Posts : 23
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Death and Banishment   Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:30 pm

TickTock wrote:
This is tangentially related, and I'll probably start another topic on it to broaden the discussion, but I wanted to touch on it as it relates to the Oath.

I think, if the Oath is broken, the consequences should still be playable. Your PC should be punished. Bad things should happen. But those bad things shouldn't be an automatic expulsion from the game. That's not IC punishment. That's OOC punishment, and far too often those two concepts are treated as interchangeable.

The problem with banishment, imprisonment, etc. is if you step out of line, that's it. Your PC is gone. You lose your character. No more RP for you, just go.

Want to talk about stifling RP? What part of 'screw up and you're off the game' doesn't encompass that?

If banishment is the only reasonable IC option, make banishment somehow playable. Terrible, awful, horrible, bad for your PC -- but playable.

I think you'd have a lot fewer people huddling in private rooms with their cadre keeping their PrPs to themselves if we got away from the model that ICA=ICC actually means 'step out of line and you're outta here.' Playable consequences could be fun. Getting kicked off because you actually did something besides bar RP and it went south? Not so much.

I'm not saying we never banish or PK ever ever ever. That would be ridiculous. Sometimes a PC screws up so badly the backlash is permanent. But I kind of hate that OOC punishment is our go-to for IC mishap. It quells people taking risks, and we end up with stagnant, lackluster RP where nothing ever happens.

So, while this an entirely different topic to discuss elsewhere, I bring it up to point out that it would be really spiffy if we could look at crafting the Oath so to have IC punishments for breaking it that you actually got to play out instead of an OOC 'GTFO' when your character does a bad thing.
Losing a character should not equate to "expulsion from the game". If someone kills Carina (very possible, since she's Summer and not the best fighter), I might have a moment of silence, maybe use it as an excuse to have a beer, but then I'll drag up one of my many other changeling concepts and get to work writing a +concept and sheet. If I'm really on the ball, Puce can have me set up with a new character in a day, at the most, and if not, I have alts that I can RP with should I get needy before my new character is ready. Loss of a character is loss of a character and that's it. Anyone who quits the game just because of losing a character is way too emotionally invested in what is, ultimately, a stupid hobby.

There are good reasons not to kill, banish or permanently imprison a character. Sensitivity to the feelings of people who feel that character death is the equivalent to being kicked off the game is not one of them.
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Alister



Posts : 33
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:37 pm

Sammi wrote:
TickTock wrote:
This is tangentially related, and I'll probably start another topic on it to broaden the discussion, but I wanted to touch on it as it relates to the Oath.

I think, if the Oath is broken, the consequences should still be playable. Your PC should be punished. Bad things should happen. But those bad things shouldn't be an automatic expulsion from the game. That's not IC punishment. That's OOC punishment, and far too often those two concepts are treated as interchangeable.

The problem with banishment, imprisonment, etc. is if you step out of line, that's it. Your PC is gone. You lose your character. No more RP for you, just go.

Want to talk about stifling RP? What part of 'screw up and you're off the game' doesn't encompass that?

If banishment is the only reasonable IC option, make banishment somehow playable. Terrible, awful, horrible, bad for your PC -- but playable.

I think you'd have a lot fewer people huddling in private rooms with their cadre keeping their PrPs to themselves if we got away from the model that ICA=ICC actually means 'step out of line and you're outta here.' Playable consequences could be fun. Getting kicked off because you actually did something besides bar RP and it went south? Not so much.

I'm not saying we never banish or PK ever ever ever. That would be ridiculous. Sometimes a PC screws up so badly the backlash is permanent. But I kind of hate that OOC punishment is our go-to for IC mishap. It quells people taking risks, and we end up with stagnant, lackluster RP where nothing ever happens.

So, while this an entirely different topic to discuss elsewhere, I bring it up to point out that it would be really spiffy if we could look at crafting the Oath so to have IC punishments for breaking it that you actually got to play out instead of an OOC 'GTFO' when your character does a bad thing.
Losing a character should not equate to "expulsion from the game". If someone kills Carina (very possible, since she's Summer and not the best fighter), I might have a moment of silence, maybe use it as an excuse to have a beer, but then I'll drag up one of my many other changeling concepts and get to work writing a +concept and sheet. If I'm really on the ball, Puce can have me set up with a new character in a day, at the most, and if not, I have alts that I can RP with should I get needy before my new character is ready. Loss of a character is loss of a character and that's it. Anyone who quits the game just because of losing a character is way too emotionally invested in what is, ultimately, a stupid hobby.

There are good reasons not to kill, banish or permanently imprison a character. Sensitivity to the feelings of people who feel that character death is the equivalent to being kicked off the game is not one of them.

I think mentioned this on another post. I understand wanting to curb a bit to allow for roleplay...but then you take away from the theme of the game. Its in the book, Banishment is the harshest of punishments as the second would be death as imprisonment reflects to much of being back with the Gentry and seen as being as bad as them so most changelings would accept banishment over imprisonment. Now there is always exceptions of the rule, but if you lax on punishment then people will break the rules knowing they may not get a harsh sentence and just come back to RP. Now is this fair to the victim who was attacked or what not only to have the PC be ok to roleplay in a few days or weeks? I say no. You play the game you know the consequences so if your going to break freehold laws dont pledge to the freehold and if you do break the pledge be ready to roleplay being on the lamb and a possible end to the game.
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Alexander



Posts : 35
Join date : 2011-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:42 pm

Being locked away "for a really long time," on a MU, would likely be better than banishment. Banish has the idea of /never/ allowing the person to return. With being put in MU jail, you can basically freeze the character (entitlements might be an issue), and if the player wants, they can come back in and try to appeal to whoever the crown is to get off with time served to get the pc back.
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Alister



Posts : 33
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:45 pm

Alexander wrote:
Being locked away "for a really long time," on a MU, would likely be better than banishment. Banish has the idea of /never/ allowing the person to return. With being put in MU jail, you can basically freeze the character (entitlements might be an issue), and if the player wants, they can come back in and try to appeal to whoever the crown is to get off with time served to get the pc back.

Banishment can be set to a time frame i believe based on the length of the pledge. If its a year and a day or a season then so be it. I may be wrong on that.
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Alexander



Posts : 35
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PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:47 pm

Banishment is set up by the crown, I think they can dictate the length of the banishment. But it's not exactly a banishment if they can return anytime "soon." If that's the case, then it's just a forced vacation.
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Alister



Posts : 33
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PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:48 pm

Alexander wrote:
Banishment is set up by the crown, I think they can dictate the length of the banishment. But it's not exactly a banishment if they can return anytime "soon." If that's the case, then it's just a forced vacation.

If its for a season then banishment isnt to bad. There is always forks to rp in as the freehold awhile ago to my knowledge did not include forks and i believe still doesnt.
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Sammi



Posts : 23
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:50 pm

Alister wrote:
Banishment can be set to a time frame i believe based on the length of the pledge. If its a year and a day or a season then so be it. I may be wrong on that.
It's actually much more mild than that. "Those who face the sanction of banishment must flee the domain of the lord they have betrayed, for his servants stand to gain by harming or killing the traitor. Any changeling who bears a fealty to the lord who has pronounced banishment may gain a point of Glamour for acting to harm the traitor in a scene, as long as that harm occurs within the freehold’s borders." (CtL p. 182). When the season's over? It's a whole other lord and the exile must be pronounced anew.
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TickTock



Posts : 7
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PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:21 pm

This isn't about anyone's feelings, it's about the reality of what happens when you conflate IC punishment with OOC punishment. I don't particularly care how anyone feels about it. I care about what it does to the game.

I am not talking about quitting the game. I'm talking about the character no longer having a place in it and how that effects the choices players make when it comes to RP. I'm talking about the loss of potential RP because too often doing a bad thing IC is equated with doing a bad thing OOC. That attitude has unfortunate consequences, such as no one leaving their little groups or sharing their PrPs because if they keep it to themselves they get to keep telling their PC's story. The risk (losing the PC) is not worth the gain (???) if they hit the grid and do something that might backfire.

I think that if you're going to lean OOC in your decision making -- and let's face it, we all do, to a degree -- it should be toward more people getting more RP, not less. Yes, there are instances where the character is just no longer going to have a place in the game. It happens. But when it's the default consequence? No one does anything.

Regardless of how anyone feels about it (seriously, are we really bringing 'you're just to sensitive' into this? Really?) it's a problem if what you want is more RP, not less.

While banishment may be thematic, I hesitate to use 'it's in the book' as holy writ for what should be done on a MUSH. The book is written for tabletop, which is a handful of players at most, and the GM -- if he/she wants to -- can run a game that is for banished PCs. They still get to play, because the GM takes them off on an adventure. It is not the death of RP that it would be on a MUSH. When you're catering to fifty players instead of five, going strictly by the book is going to create scenarios that don't work, because they're designed for small scale RP and we're trying to do something bigger than that.

In any case, I'm not saying ban banishment. I'm saying that it might not be a bad idea to examine the attitude that doing a bad thing IC means you automatically lose your character. Yeah, I could make another character -- and then I could lose that one too the moment I stick my head out of my room -- and on and so forth until why am I investing the time it takes to go through chargen? Again? It's less of a hassle with more of a payoff to stick with my buddies and run our own stuff.
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Sammi



Posts : 23
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:39 pm

TickTock wrote:
This isn't about anyone's feelings, it's about the reality of what happens when you conflate IC punishment with OOC punishment.
You should have said that. Instead, you opened with the implication that losing a character is equivalent to expulsion from the game. "The problem with banishment, imprisonment, etc. is if you step out of line, that's it. Your PC is gone. You lose your character. No more RP for you, just go." If a newbie were reading that, they might think we had some draconian "you may only have one character ever" policy.

Quote :
I am not talking about quitting the game. I'm talking about the character no longer having a place in it and how that effects the choices players make when it comes to RP. I'm talking about the loss of potential RP because too often doing a bad thing IC is equated with doing a bad thing OOC.
This is an entirely separate issue from whether sanctions like banishment are usable. If doing bad things IC is equated to doing bad things OOC, then it doesn't matter whether a character gets unplayable or not. The people who get OOC-butthurt over IC actions aren't going to care whether or not it's illegal; they'll ostracize the player anyway. The people who don't get OOC-butthurt over IC actions aren't going to ostracize the player at all.

Quote :
That attitude has unfortunate consequences, such as no one leaving their little groups or sharing their PrPs because if they keep it to themselves they get to keep telling their PC's story. The risk (losing the PC) is not worth the gain (???) if they hit the grid and do something that might backfire.
I don't see how hitting the grid and meeting new people is worthy of banishment or death. On the other hand, if you do something that does risk such harsh punishment you know the risk ahead of time and can make an informed decision about whether or not to accept it (OOCly, if not ICly).

Quote :
I think that if you're going to lean OOC in your decision making -- and let's face it, we all do, to a degree -- it should be toward more people getting more RP, not less. Yes, there are instances where the character is just no longer going to have a place in the game. It happens. But when it's the default consequence? No one does anything.
The default consequence of what? You're talking a lot about people walking out onto the grid and getting promptly exiled or ganked. When has that ever happened?

Quote :
(seriously, are we really bringing 'you're just to sensitive' into this? Really?)
If someone quits the game just because of losing a character, yes. This is a stupid hobby. What's more, it's a stupid hobby set in an extremely dangerous horror setting. If the character dies and the player treats it like the end of the world, yes, they're too sensitive and need therapy more than they need the MUSH.

Quote :
While banishment may be thematic, I hesitate to use 'it's in the book' as holy writ for what should be done on a MUSH. The book is written for tabletop, which is a handful of players at most, and the GM -- if he/she wants to -- can run a game that is for banished PCs. They still get to play, because the GM takes them off on an adventure. It is not the death of RP that it would be on a MUSH.
We've been over this.

1) Forks and Hoh are part of the game, but not part of the Freehold.
2) Banishment only lasts until the pronouncing lord is no longer lord.

So, at most, you have to go hang out at Bea's farm until the seasons turn, then you can appeal your exile to the next crown. It's a serious punishment, but to say that it is "death of RP" is grossly misstating the facts.

Quote :
In any case, I'm not saying ban banishment. I'm saying that it might not be a bad idea to examine the attitude that doing a bad thing IC means you automatically lose your character.
If a monarch were to pronounce exile for every petty theft that happened, how well do you think that would go over? Remember, you need a fourth of the Freehold to witness a proclamation of banishment, and monarchs can be overthrown if they abuse their power.

Quote :
Yeah, I could make another character -- and then I could lose that one too the moment I stick my head out of my room
When has this ever happened? On Darkwater, specifically (we all know horror stories from MUSHes past, but they aren't relevant to this discussion).
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TickTock



Posts : 7
Join date : 2011-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:31 pm

Yeah. This is devolving quickly into a heated argument I don't really get anything out of having, so. Dropping it.
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Rangi



Posts : 6
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:11 pm

I have to say this, sorry...can we avoid comments like 'too sensitive and need therapy' etc? Because I'm doing this for fun, and I don't really want to have to defend my RL personality. I want to exchange ideas without comments on my RL sanity and therapy need or lack thereof(*).

Re: Losing characters
It takes me a long time to make a PC. I'm the first to admit I suck at it. I'm happy to be killed off in combat or whatever (oooh, how I love me some drama), but for me? It's not a quick thing, and I gotta weigh how I feel about generating a new PC vs giving up. If I got banished, I'd try to find a way to RP because I gotta do that anyway to dodge various timezone issues. If it got hard to RP because of banishment _plus_ my timezone issues and I felt that was 'just how the game was', I'd quit. That ain't drama, that's looking at value-for-investment. I'm not exactly a masochist, I got plenty of other things to do (**).

Quote :
If a monarch were to pronounce exile for every petty theft that happened, how well do you think that would go over?
I really didn't get the impression that's what Ticktock was arguing for. He doesn't seem to be arguing 'no banishment ever' anyway.

I wouldn't mind seeing some NPCs get slapped with banishment, actually, or other courtly smackdowns - object lessons to be gossiped about. PCs...I tend to waver on a bit of an 'it depends', to be honest. I prefer quests, IC punishment that creates RP, and that kind of thing. If there's plenty of RP out in areas where Banished PCs can go to, that's all okay. If there's not, eh, I'd rather see the impossible quest kinda thing. If any of my PCs got slapped with 'You're banished and can only be in Forks' I'd probably give up because I would never see anyone but myself in Forks hanging out at 5:00am PST.

I take days to make a character. I talk about it, I consider it, I wonder what their death scenes would be like because I can be an Angstbunny. And that's okay. And it's okay to take a minute or so to do it too. It's nothing more than a different style in play and approach (hint: I suck at maths! So hard!). But with the way I work it, if I'm going to go out, I want it to be with a bang, or at least a death scene I get to RP out. Because making a PC will take me a long, long time. Being on hold is kinda not where I want my RP to go.

(*)IS this a safe space to have discussions, out of curiosity? Because if it ain't, I'm outta the forum. My really real life is too intense for this in my downtime Very Happy I do this to relax!

(**) But not Firan. Never Firan D:
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TickTock



Posts : 7
Join date : 2011-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:23 pm

Rangi wrote:
I have to say this, sorry...can we avoid comments like 'too sensitive and need therapy' etc? Because I'm doing this for fun, and I don't really want to have to defend my RL personality. I want to exchange ideas without comments on my RL sanity and therapy need or lack thereof(*).

Peeking in to second this. This is why I'm not continuing the discussion. Keep your comments on other people's RL sanity to yourself. It's rude, it's uncalled for, and it's none of your f'ing business.
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Claire



Posts : 11
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:33 am

I think one thing needs to be said here that was mentioned:

Banishment doesn't mean no RP. As stated, there are other places outside Port Angeles proper that is part of the grid, and where a PC could relocate for the duration of their banishment. And guess what? Everyone can go there! It does not have to mean the end of RP. Get your IC friends to visit! Get to know people from that area!

If my character got banished, that's what I would do. Pick up RP and take it to another area, and make it a happening place to RP. Wait out my time, then appeal to the new Monarch who may well see the situation differently than the previous one. New information could have come to light. Or maybe I made suitable amends for my actions to Monarch and/or victim, whatever and am forgiven.

I just think people are overthinking this too much, and immediately saying that it would ruin your character should you ever do something so horrible to risk banishment. With a new freehold oath and laws being worked on, I think it will make it plain as to what might lead you to banishment. Sorry, but if you then do something that would break the oath/laws? Then you accept the consequences and take your lumps. Again, it shouldn't be so bad that you can't work out something to make it fun. Especially seeing as Forks is like maybe an hour's drive ICly, and easily traveled to by anyone!

True Banishment from PA that would take on a year or lifetime, should be reserved for truly BAD things.

Anyway, this is my $0.02.
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Thomas



Posts : 32
Join date : 2011-01-28

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:50 am

I fully support having a banishment task that a Monarch can wield. Different Monarchs will banish either lightly, or wield that stick heavily, but as others have pointed out, that doesn't mean a loss of your character or an end to RP. There are a number of places outside the Freehold, and if you don't like Forks, there are still rooms that are outside that could be turned into hardscrabble refuges for exiled Lost. Hell, the 'rival in exile' and his/her supporters is a classic political setup for some awesome RP. Likewise, as was mentioned, banishment is typically temporary, unless you were to force someone to accept a specific vow never to set foot in the Freehold again. (Which you could do, of course: Forbiddance, 'never enter any territory held or claimed by the Freehold in the Hedge or the material world' for whatever duration you cared for.)

It's also a punishment that punishes the one who abuses it; a Monarch who hands out banishment too freely will find his or her own base of support rapidly shrinking, while the ranks of their enemies swell just outside their borders. That could be a very fun tension to play out, particularly if exiles band together in their own support or revenge structures.

Additionally, it gives non-sworn people a potential niche as diplomats, gobetweens, and catspaws. Since they gain nothing from harming an exile, and yet can still discuss things with Freeholders, clever non-sworn can easily set themselves up as trustworthy neutral parties...bounty hunters...or saboteurs working for the exiles.

Banishment provides a /lot/ more RP, in my opinion, than imprisonment would. Imprisonment, unless one is allowed to stage regular escape attempts, is pretty damned boring, and is something that Changelings don't do lightly, at any rate.
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Bea



Posts : 15
Join date : 2011-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:58 am

Don't think this is deserving of it's own thread, and seems to fit best here...
On Forks: I would really like to see less ambiguity in the position Forks holds in the freehold. Currently, as noted, Forks is NOT part of the freehold. It hould be a place for non-freeholders to be- staff has made it /very/ clear that this is what Forks is to be, in the Lost sphere.
The IC reason I've been given for this is that there is not enough of a military presence to protect a place this far away. And yet the Watch, the most active Freehold military group(as stated by Charlie- it is a militia auxilary unit), led by the Freehold Clerk, is stationed there. At the moment, I would consider Forks a safer place to be than PA proper due to this.
If Forks is not part of the freehold, great! That gives a place for those who don't want to be in it, get banished, etc, to have a place to go, and can be used to create lots of fun conflict. But if that is the case, then the freehold should not have a presence there.
As a note,trying to deal with this IC has gotten me a consistent non response, or 'oh well, nothing to be done now'.


To be somewhat more on topic: I think banishment is a fine answer. As many people have pointed out, it is neither permanent nor isit exile from the grid. Execution in some cases may be warrented, but really has been limited to NPCs so far, and I don't see that changing any timesoon.
I would say that if Banishment ends up being used /frequently/ (another thing I don't see happening any time soon), another 'not the freehold' gridspace should be created, preferably urban for those who don't want to live in the sticks.
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Polly
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PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:24 am

We are supposed to be creative people, this is a hobby for creative people.

Banishment sucks, it isn't fun.

Currently the bulk of the 'thematic' punishments do take a PC out of the game, make them unplayable or generally suck. They are designed not to RP but to effectively neutralize a player. People support them because they view the offender as not only ICly guilty but OOCly dangerous. We tend towards permanant solutions because we don't want the guilty party coming back and fucking with us. This is Old Mu pathology and needs to go away.

There is a wealth of creative and more importantly interesting to rp Punishments out there. Pledges are completely thematic as punishment.

Tick Tock is absolutely right that OOC RPability should be considered.

The common mu* discourse is that PK is heinous. An awful lot of us have learned how to use ad populum arguments to appeal to the peanut gallery and use more 'civil' means of removing other PC's from play. The effect is the same.

Hypothetically, If Kailin were to be significantly butthurt and whine until the freehold banished Gwen forever? It would OOCly be the same as PKing her. Yet we would think it's ok because he didn't flex nasty immoral combat stats to get rid of her.

This old Mu* shit needs to go away. We can be creative, cooperative and colaborative OOCly while staying thematic. I think most of us are smart enough to pull this off and make Darkwater an improvement over the same old bullshit
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Thomas



Posts : 32
Join date : 2011-01-28

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:52 am

Polly wrote:
We are supposed to be creative people, this is a hobby for creative people.

Banishment sucks, it isn't fun.

Banishment can be quite fun, if you're a creative person. Let's look at the actual Banishment punishment: you are not compelled to leave the Freehold, but /anyone/ who is Oathed to the Freehold now has a good reason to try and take you out, as long as you remain within the borders of the Freehold. Which, as several people have mentioned, don't include all the grid rooms of the game. With the expansion of the Hoh areas, I'd be surprised if they even included a /majority/ of the grid rooms on the game. Once you are exiled from the Freehold, you have quite a few options available to you. You can try and make new allies (possibly including mortals and werewolves, since you're no longer bound by strictures of secrecy) and form your own structures; you can look ahead to the next Season and start cultivating allies within that Season through aid, bribery, and other means, so that when that Monarch is chosen, they have an incentive to welcome you back; you can plot your Dire Revenge Against All Who Have Scorned You, and sabotage the works of the Freehold, possibly with unpledged as your operatives; or you can attempt to defy the banishment, and remain within the borders of the Freehold and take on all comers as a protest.

And that's just off the top of my head.

Quote :
Currently the bulk of the 'thematic' punishments do take a PC out of the game, make them unplayable or generally suck. They are designed not to RP but to effectively neutralize a player. People support them because they view the offender as not only ICly guilty but OOCly dangerous. We tend towards permanant solutions because we don't want the guilty party coming back and fucking with us. This is Old Mu pathology and needs to go away.

There is a wealth of creative and more importantly interesting to rp Punishments out there. Pledges are completely thematic as punishment.

While I agree that pledges should be used FAR MORE as punishment than they are now, and provide a wealth of opportunities for IC consequences, I don't see any problem with a punishment 'sucking'. It IS supposed to restrict IC actions, and make it very clear to all concerned that this IC action is not considered acceptable. A punishment is, by its very nature, going to restrict some form of RP. Additionally, in the past, it's worth noting that PCs have removed themselves from the game rather than play out a pledged punishment.

Whatever consequences there are for an action, some people will consider it to be too much, and rail against it OOC, rather than being creative about it IC and making it work for them.


Quote :
Tick Tock is absolutely right that OOC RPability should be considered.

The common mu* discourse is that PK is heinous. An awful lot of us have learned how to use ad populum arguments to appeal to the peanut gallery and use more 'civil' means of removing other PC's from play. The effect is the same.

Hypothetically, If Kailin were to be significantly butthurt and whine until the freehold banished Gwen forever? It would OOCly be the same as PKing her. Yet we would think it's ok because he didn't flex nasty immoral combat stats to get rid of her.

This old Mu* shit needs to go away. We can be creative, cooperative and colaborative OOCly while staying thematic. I think most of us are smart enough to pull this off and make Darkwater an improvement over the same old bullshit

I admit, I don't see a problem with removing a character from the game, when that character has undertaken actions that no reasonably sane group of characters would tolerate, even if they aren't of the personalities to murder that character in return. The Freehold is not, and should not be, required to be a warm and fuzzy place for everyone, no matter how dangerous and crazy they are, or how often they attack others, betray others, and fuck up at every turn. A player has a responsibility to consider the consequences of their character's actions, and to deal with those consequences as they come, because, quite frankly, even if the character is 'out of control', the player ISN'T.

Instead, what we often get are people who want to play edgy, crazed outlaws who answer to no authority, and when people start objecting to being pushed around and band together to create protective structures (which is, at its heart, what the Freehold is), cry that they're being oppressed. I'm not sure that the game or other players are required to sacrifice their fun to keep these characters around and 'playing', any more than we would be required to party with a known griefer in an MMO.
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Claire



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PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:59 am

To Thomas:

++++++1 kazillion!
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Bea



Posts : 15
Join date : 2011-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:11 am

I kind of toe the line on this-
Ithink REASONABLE accomodations should be made to make sure that a character can remain playable. But, as Thomas says, a particularly insane character brings IC consequences that might just make them unplayable.
IN Gwen's case, a reasonable solution was found- she spent a couple nights in the dungeon, and isnow getting treatment ICly, which will hopefully make her less fly off thehandle. If it were activity that persists, despite IC actions to try to 'fix' her, then yes, it is reasonable to say 'you're too crazy to be around, you are a threat to society at large'. This would apply to any character.
I played a nutty 'fly off the handle' character. When she got too crazy, my options became to kill her off, have herleave, or be put in prision indefinitely. I found a way that was IC, created RP fodder for others, and gave me an OOCly satisfactory end to a character I was fond of. Staff has even been so kind as to allow me to play a 'guest appearance' of that crazy character in ghost-form. From my ownexperience, I can say that PC death on DW does not HAVE to be so awful as it is being made out.
My opinion also takes into account the ease of the app process. As someone noted, Puce usually has people ready for the grid in a day or two. The only limit on how quick you are breaking in a newcharacter is your own ability to get one made. Staff isn't responsible for your creativity level, they can only control the way they do things on the game, and in this I think they do a damnfine job. If apps required excessive justification, 5 page BGsand a dozen flaming hoops to jump through, I would definitely have a different take.
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Polly
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PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:24 am

I'm saying that the Crazy Edgy Outlaw, AND the responsible civil minded Freeholder should both OOCly consider what other people want to do and be sensitive to that.

I'm all for punishment sucking ICly. I'm opposed to it sucking OOC. I'm especially opposed to making it suck OOC as a deterent to certain kinds of RP. I'm even more opposed to using flowery IC rhetoric as a weapon to OOCly get rid of other players.

It's obvious from your tone Thomas that you consider one type of player/RP invalid and your particular way of doing things as superior. I'm trying to say that both people can share the game if we would talk a little more and think a little harder.

I'm all for Banishment in the way you have said it. I would play that and I would not cry when I got PKed. Unfortunately, I think most people consider banishment what happened to Charlie. Even worse I think people decide stuff like the Hounds or Charlie or Nix is a threat to their fun, and in the process of removing the threat they end up squashing plots and removing players. I don't see much difference between Pking someone using your combat stats vs. 'killing' them by using the freehold government to neuter their character.

I want the OOC metagame to be more cooperative and thoughtful. The OOC game shouldn't be something you 'win'. You especially shouldn't fuck someone over OOCly using IC 'theme' as your justification.


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Alister



Posts : 33
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:28 am

Polly wrote:
I'm all for punishment sucking ICly. I'm opposed to it sucking OOC. I'm especially opposed to making it suck OOC as a deterent to certain kinds of RP. I'm even more opposed to using flowery IC rhetoric as a weapon to OOCly get rid of other players.

Well guess what, if you knowingly oocly decide to have your character icly do something wrong and get caught no matter what the consequences are its going to have to suck. Your the one who decided to have your character go in such a direction you should know the consequences. You cant play this game and know that if i stab a freehold member i know my punishment oocly will be light...oh i have to clean the victims car for three weeks but oocly i get to still play my character hooray and every pc will hate me anyway and probably resent such a lenient punishment and may leave the game totally. Yes im being sarcastic here trying to prove a point. Punishment is punishment and you all as players know if you want to play the bad guy your character can be taken out of the game easily if you get caught. If you cant accept consequences dont do them plain and simple.

Even on this mush though they way it is designed if you say get banished for a year and you freezer the character...you know one your not losing xp so when you can use the character again you will be caught up and can explain stat increases while you wandered the lands banished or what not if you didnt want to hang in forks and make yourself an alt to play around with.

You can not purposely make a consequence not suck icly or oocly or people will take advantage of it.
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Sabine



Posts : 5
Join date : 2011-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:44 am

Quote :
every pc will hate me anyway...If you cant accept consequences dont do them plain and simple.

If your character behaves in such a fashion that other PCs dislike them, whether it's through a crime or through being a dink, that is an IC consequence. Period. Smile

I think that this isn't really an issue where there is a One True Way. There's no right or wrong way to handle it. Here, we're all trying to figure out how to promote RP with the Freehold. So...

Personally, I believe that when possible, let an IC consequence be a playable consequence. In the case of DW, if that means banishment, there are areas where people can continue to RP. Handled well, it creates more RP for those involved. Really, it /is/ the more creative option because when you tailor the punishment to fit the crime (I kind of like the example of Gwen having to go around wearing oven mitts for awhile XD) you have to think outside of the box...because there's no end to the trouble that people will get up to.

If you try to assassinate the monarch and get caught though? Yeah, expect that you're probably going to end up executed if not killed outright during the attempt. But for theft from another Freehold member? Assault? Romping around in a fashion that draws mortal attention? It's so much more fun for someone to get tagged with having to walk around with a hedgespun sign saying "I STEAL FROM MY BROTHERS", or wear oven mitts, or get sent on a quest to bring back a book for the Freehold library, or...

Edit: This also has the added benefit of also encouraging people to stick their neck out there and take naughty risks with their characters, because getting caught is likely to lead to the ol' punishment and (possible) redemption RP. So...yeah. That's where my vote lies.
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Alister



Posts : 33
Join date : 2011-01-27

PostSubject: Re: Death and Banishment   Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:09 am

One of the best functions of this game is the +temproom command. You get banished you can temproom a location for yourself for people to come rp with you at if needed so Rp can still happen for banished PC's.
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