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TickTock



Posts : 7
Join date : 2011-01-26

PostSubject: Freehold Hollow Stats   Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:54 am

It has been discussed in more than a few instances that the Redoubt is an XP sink and there is very little incentive to continue tossing XP into that hole when the natural flux of players coming and going is just going to leave the Hollow in a perpetual state of falling apart. This is kind of crap deal for the long-timers who stick it out, because unless the newcomers contribute -- and there is no guarantee they will -- your contribution is a waste of XP. There is no incentive. Not when you could spend that XP on a Hollow of your own and never lose a single dot of it.

This thread is to discuss the issue. Thoughts and ideas are welcome. Here's one to get the ball rolling:

The Freehold would start with a base of 2 dots in all areas to account for it being a Freehold, and those NPCs in the area. That would be a 2 in each of: Size, Amenities, Wards, Doors, Archives, and Workshops.

With every 20 people Oathed to the Freehold, then you raise a dot in each area. Effectively, if you have at least 60 PCs Oathed to the Freehold, then you would hold 5s in all areas.

If numbers drop and stay low? Then things will disappear. You drop to 40 members Oathed, then you lose a dot in all areas. Between Staff and Muses who handle jobs with crafting, etc, it would be easy to find out which Archives/Workshops are least used, and those would be the first to 'disappear', to return in the way of Freeholds when the numbers increase again.

In this way, you aren't constantly asking players for XP in the Freehold, then losing stuff when that person freezes or dies or whatever. When 1 person ends up with 3+ dots in the Freehold and then disappear, it hurts everyone else. Realistically, Freeholds have an NPC element that isn't being reflected here. Plus, we need to stress just how important the Freehold is. Yes, people can have their own hollows, but they are no means to replace a Freehold that stands stronger because of the numbers Oathed to it. There could be an indication that while you might have a Hollow with Wards 5, the Freehold Wards 5 is going to be better because of the essence/Wyrd/whatever of it's 50+ members backing it vs a single person or small motley.

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Blue



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Join date : 2011-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:04 am

I love this idea, with the base dots and then more incrementing as more people pledge. It covers NPC contribution and reflects PC contribution, and it gives a visible, immediate benefit to the Freehold being bigger. It even gives people an incentive to convince others to join the Freehold; the more people in it, the better stuff you get out of the place. It's also got a bit of a community feel, as opposed to "whoever can be guilted into supporting everyone else pays".
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Sabine



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:04 am

I like it. Yep, just that. I think it solves a good portion of that particular headache.
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NotOtter

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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:38 am

I am so totally on board with this. Seal of Approval approves!
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Lament



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:38 am

I like this idea and it'd work for me.
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NotOtter

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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:45 am

Do I recall reading that stats can now go ABOVE 5 now? Because if so, we don't even max out at 5 in that case, so capping's not a concern.
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Bea



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:45 pm

I think that's a great idea. I would definitely suggest a lower target number, though. Also, can this rule apply to Court hollows? Maybe with different alues assigned to how many are needed to keep it up.
One thing that I think would be great to see is, if there /does/ end up being a crumbling of the hollow, it have an IC element. As it is now, it's all XP-shuffling and posts begging XP, but ICly it should be the encroachment of the thorns into your home, basically, and it is never made into anything other than 'you can't use that Workshop bonus anymore'. Hobs start roaming the halls of Redoubt blocking corridors, a whole floor seems to float away and get stuck in a cloud...If we could make the loss of stats bring about a Thing to Do, or at least talk about, that might be nice.
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Tara



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:59 am

Excellent idea!

I like Bea's suggestions too....

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Spara
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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:52 am

My concern is this: It removes those who want to contribute XP/work to the Freehold for IC reasons, which may not always be immediately apparent.

Example: I was planning on purchasing several dots of Doors for the Freehold, but only telling people about half of them, using the other half for my own private and secret uses. Smile
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Claire



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:53 am

Spara wrote:
My concern is this: It removes those who want to contribute XP/work to the Freehold for IC reasons, which may not always be immediately apparent.

Example: I was planning on purchasing several dots of Doors for the Freehold, but only telling people about half of them, using the other half for my own private and secret uses. Smile

I wouldn't see why you couldn't do that still, especially for the 'private' ones?
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Cobalt



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PostSubject: Why Cobalt Hates The Redoubt   Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:15 am

Okay, I'm going to state that this post is going to be blunt.

The idea does have merits to it. However, there are some issues. If wards starts at 2? That isn't very secure. Right now the Redoubt is so secure and has not been attacked at all by Gentry because staff is cognizant of the fact that at wards 5 the chances of a gentry attack should be in the negatives. If you start wards at 2, then chances of a Gentry attack are higher. And if you raise the wards by having people? Well, why would someone join something that's been attacked by the Gentry?

That issue can be worked around, however. And Staff is willing to work with people.




Now, let me explain something. Bluntly put.

I hate the Redoubt. I have always hated the Redoubt. If I had my druthers I would see it implode and blink out of existence one day. Let me explain why I hate the Redoubt.

A) The Redoubt has not given much to the game. It has infact, in the eyes of myself and others, taken away from the game. Which, I will explain in further points.

B) When the Redoubt came onto the grid it was the first real fractioning of the grid. Staff noticed that when the Redoubt hit the grid, people stopped being out in public. They instead stuck to the relative privacy of the Redoubt, and after that they moved to their private rooms in the Redoubt, and from there their private rooms not attached to the redoubt. +hangouts became less populates, public RP on the grid slowly ground to a halt. The player base split off from itself and stopped mingling.

C) The Redoubt has actually been a detriment to plot.

C1) I know that last summer one of the biggest complaints was "too many gentry". There were in fact very few actual real gentry attacks. TGM that showed up at the summer crowning was not actually TGM, but an illusion. Gentry, loyalist attacks, privateer attacks, etc. have all not been run because the Redoubt is constantly kept at such high wards that I feel as a staffer it would be taking a dump on the players to run them on the Redoubt. So. If a Gentry attacks? People can just all gather up at the Redoubt and wait for it to pass. Not real fun.

C2) Now, the Redoubt was not meant for what it is used for. When I ran the scene where the Redoubt was "Reclaimed". The purpose of the scene was not to give a central hollow for the Freehold. That is what the Atrium was meant for. The hollow that was the redoubt was meant to push another leg of The Things Forgotten plot. To introduce that there was a Freehold in the area before Mirella & Faye Ambrose's. The creation of the Redoubt meant that this got ignored.

C3) Lastly on this point... Frankly, the Atrium was meant for this. The Atrium actually does have special properties that other hollows don't. Like the ability to temporarily create anything you want it to create (which normally does not happen in hollows, even at amenities 5). No one has investigated these properties. And no one has really investigated the atrium, until recently.

Now, I am not blaming anyone for it. I could have pushed these last two points harder. I could have denied the creation of the Redoubt. But I am too soft. I prefer to say "yes" than to say "no". So, instead of sticking to my guns and saying "no there is already stuff out there"... I sighed and said, "Sure! Go for it, have fun." Because that's what I want at the end of the day, for the players to have fun.

But this is why I hate the Redoubt. This is why I will likely, always, hate the Redoubt.
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Alexander



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Join date : 2011-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:28 am

An idea came to me about this. Also has to deal with the fact that the seasonal courts aren't as tight knit as they should be.

Instead of the Redoubt, whichever season is in power uses that court's hollow as the "seat of power." So, it's Winter, for court meetings and such we'd all meet at the Winter's hollow instead of the Redoubt. I'm kinda doubting most of the seasonal hollows see much play, either, because we can all just hide in the Redoubt.
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Claire



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:35 am

I don't think all Courts have a Hollow though. At least, don't think Summer does?

And honestly, how much hiding out in the Redoubt is happening these days? Truly, not very much. AT least, not as much as there might have been in last Spring and beginning of Summer. More people hang out in personal hollows if they're in the hedge from what I've seen.
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Alexander



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:39 am

Claire wrote:
I don't think all Courts have a Hollow though. At least, don't think Summer does?

And honestly, how much hiding out in the Redoubt is happening these days? Truly, not very much. AT least, not as much as there might have been in last Spring and beginning of Summer. More people hang out in personal hollows if they're in the hedge from what I've seen.

No, but a Gentry has been spotted around PA. What are the frightful going to do? Run and hide.

Add to that, every season /should/ have a hollow of their own. It'd be up to the people of that court to build the hollow large and strong. With 10 or so people, you're much less likely to get every single hollow stat to 5.
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Truth and Lies



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:41 am

I'm going to be blasted for this, but.. I don't see why people should complain about Gentry attacks and ect. Those are the sort of things that generate RP and interest. If we don't have anything going on, it turns into All Our Lost Children... If that. Even Soap Operas have evil twins and people thought dead showing up to save (or ruin) the day. I think of the area was under a constant state of siege, more or less depending on specifics, people would be less hesitant about joining a freehold.

That said.. Yeah. I'm not a fan of the Redoubt. I don't RP there. I RP more often at the Atrium, when I go Hedgeside. I definitely approve of getting rid of the Redoubt and focusing attention more on the Atrium. Where is the conflict and where is the interest if we have this awesome powerful sanctuary? The Gentry are suppose to be an ever present fear that our 'lings are suppose to live with, each in their own way depending on their season.

As far as seasonal Hollows.. I like saving them for the people of the courts. We HAVE an awesome unique Hollow that we simply aren't using because we haven't investigated it enough.

Again, probably going to be blasted, but there's my two cents.
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Truth and Lies



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:43 am

Alexander wrote:

No, but a Gentry has been spotted around PA. What are the frightful going to do? Run and hide.

Depends on the season. Thematically, Spring throws a party because they feel that if they can laugh in the face of the Gentry, the Gentry simply won't recognize them. Winter hides. Summer fights back, and Autumn uses their own powers against them.
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Alexander



Posts : 35
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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:00 am

Truth and Lies wrote:
Alexander wrote:

No, but a Gentry has been spotted around PA. What are the frightful going to do? Run and hide.

Depends on the season. Thematically, Spring throws a party because they feel that if they can laugh in the face of the Gentry, the Gentry simply won't recognize them. Winter hides. Summer fights back, and Autumn uses their own powers against them.

True, that's the way it should be. It's the point that, if needed, the Lost could go hide beind their walls and not have anything to /ever/ fear about.
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NotOtter

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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:11 am

I actually would have no objection to getting rid of the Redoubt, but I would want a few issues to be addressed:

First, using the Seasonal hollows is not a bad idea, and if Summer needed one, I'm sure staff would be accommodating plot-wise accordingly. That said, how would everyone feel about non-Court members having access to their respective Court hollows?

Second, if we get rid of the Redoubt and begin to use the Atrium for all of our 'all Courts' functions, it deprives us of something that freeholders have access to that non-freeholders don't. Anyone can come to the Atrium, so how would security be addressed?

That all said, I still do really like the idea that was initially proposed. If staff is too concerned about the raises based on population, they could probably lift or lower the number required to raise the collective stats?
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Alexander



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:17 am

It's my opinion that, if someone is a Spring and uses the Spring hollow, they'd be asked to join the Freehold. That's one of the problems now. No one is asking /anyone/ new to join.
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Alister



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:18 am

Claire wrote:
I don't think all Courts have a Hollow though. At least, don't think Summer does?

And honestly, how much hiding out in the Redoubt is happening these days? Truly, not very much. AT least, not as much as there might have been in last Spring and beginning of Summer. More people hang out in personal hollows if they're in the hedge from what I've seen.

Winter has one but its meant for hiding out like the Winter Cottages in the book but is used to meet at times. the problem we have been having with public hollows is people leaving the game and you lose the dots put into the hollow itself if people do not put up xp to keep it going.
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Bea



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:22 am

Quote :
C3) Lastly on this point... Frankly, the Atrium was meant for this. The Atrium actually does have special properties that other hollows don't. Like the ability to temporarily create anything you want it to create (which normally does not happen in hollows, even at amenities 5). No one has investigated these properties. And no one has really investigated the atrium, until recently.

Cobalt- On this point, I don't think that that has been made as clear as you might think? I know I have -frequently- seen people posing the Redoubt amenities in the same way. Perhaps people just are assuming that's how you're working amenties?



Quote :
That said, how would everyone feel about non-Court members having access to their respective Court hollows?
I don't think this is a good idea. Changing the location to one that suits each court (Atlantis or Blue Moon for Spring, a gym or something for Summer, etc) might be cool, but the Hollows should remain court-only.

I think using the Atrium as the Freehold hollow for Official Doin's would be perfect. For everything else (and for the most part even that) it can be done real world side. After all, even in Hollows, the Hege is a dangerous place, and frequent large gatherings in it is, in theory, asking for trouble.
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NotOtter

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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:39 am

Alexander wrote:
It's my opinion that, if someone is a Spring and uses the Spring hollow, they'd be asked to join the Freehold. That's one of the problems now. No one is asking /anyone/ new to join.

The problem with this is that the Seasonal Courts do not require freehold membership. Seasonal Court and "Freehold Court and Crown" are two different things.

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Alexander



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:01 pm

Yes, it is. The thing, though, is that /all/ Changelings should /want/ to be a member of the Freehold, for their security. If someone isn't a member of the Freehold, the question comes back to why? With the idea of having court hollows act as the "hollow to meet at" (I am NOT saying it because the season's Redoubt, just that's where everyone who wishes to speak the crown comes), that'd have people who frequent the hollow but not a member of the Freehold get some of that wonderful peer pressure to join.

To Alister, I pose you this: Who said the court couldn't have more than one? With the paranoid types of Winter, it would make sense. Have a small "dummy" one to hold court in, and then your private hidden ones for when you need to hide.
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Alister



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:06 pm

Alexander wrote:
To Alister, I pose you this: Who said the court couldn't have more than one? With the paranoid types of Winter, it would make sense. Have a small "dummy" one to hold court in, and then your private hidden ones for when you need to hide.

Tis possible but we would have the same problem were having with our current place. Loss of old members how put dots into the hollow now not here so were losing pieces and it costs a lot to re-up the lost dots with Xp then the fear others will get bored and leave and so on. Causes a nightmare to keep such group hollows running and im sure its a pain for staff.
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Alexander



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PostSubject: Re: Freehold Hollow Stats   Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:36 pm

No one said the hollow has to be 5's across the board. It's not a safe haven; it's a place to hold court with the crown. Not looking for mini-Redoubts here. Most people do not live in their court's hollow; they have their own. I think asking a tithe of 2xp per court member wouldn't be out of the question to build a hollow. Or, maybe have some staff created hollows, like the Atrium (meaning hollows with pre-set stats) that can't be upgraded by anyone.
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